Dallas Police shootings

[Hobbit]

On the back of another shooting of an Afro-American by the Police in the US there's now been a revenge attack against the Police, with 5 officers shot dead.There's been a number of rallies across the US, often with banners saying, "Black Lives Matter." All lives matter! What has colour got to do with it?And then you hear the do-gooders saying that Blacks are discriminated against. Without a doubt, in certain areas of the US that still happens. And no doubt there's some Police guilty of it too. However, on the back of a question from HID earlier I Goolged the population demographics 'v' the number of Police shootings. And the results were unexpected.In terms of the ratio of ethnicity and shootings, its pretty much equal. The Police are just as likely to shoot you irrespective of colour. Beating the Police up for discrimination is off the mark. Beat them up for their lack of control.The problem in the US is guns, both in the hands of the public and the Police.

 

[Hacker Khan]

On the back of another shooting of an Afro-American by the Police in the US there's now been a revenge attack against the Police, with 5 officers shot dead.There's been a number of rallies across the US, often with banners saying, "Black Lives Matter." All lives matter! What has colour got to do with it?And then you hear the do-gooders saying that Blacks are discriminated against. Without a doubt, in certain areas of the US that still happens. And no doubt there's some Police guilty of it too. However, on the back of a question from HID earlier I Goolged the population demographics 'v' the number of Police shootings. And the results were unexpected.In terms of the ratio of ethnicity and shootings, its pretty much equal. The Police are just as likely to shoot you irrespective of colour. Beating the Police up for discrimination is off the mark. Beat them up for their lack of control.The problem in the US is guns, both in the hands of the public and the Police.

As we all know you can use stats to prove anything. I think one of the main issues is the fact that the people shot dead were unarmed, as not many people would be up in arms with the police shooting anyone if they are also armed and are a threat. For example from this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32740523

"Black people are three times more likely to be killed by police in the United States than white people. More unarmed black people were killed by police than unarmed white people last year. And that's taking into account the fact that black people are only 14% of the population here.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

As we all know you can use stats to prove anything. I think one of the main issues is the fact that the people shot dead were unarmed, as not many people would be up in arms with the police shooting anyone if they are also armed and are a threat. For example from this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32740523

"Black people are three times more likely to be killed by police in the United States than white people. More unarmed black people were killed by police than unarmed white people last year. And that's taking into account the fact that black people are only 14% of the population here.

But were not the two victims in Minnesota and South Carolina both armed, certainly that was what was said on C4 News last night.

Whether they were likely to use their guns or represented any threat to the Police Officers involved is more relevant and relates back to Hobbit's point that the problem lies with a society awash with firearms, many held legally, where the watchword appears to be "Shoot first, ask questions later!"

 

[User62651]

Lots of US cops killed every year by guns so they're really jumpy when approaching people and often go over the top in their actions to protect themselves imo. Seems like the training they're getting isn't good enough or the people they're recruiting don't have the right character to be be police offices. One of those recent videos is pretty damning of the police - they pulled a guy over for a broken tail light, he says he has a gun in the car, guy goes for his licence/ID then cop shot him 4 times dead with his partner sat beside him and their child in the car. Doesn't seem any way that victim has any reason to be seen as a threat to the cop - if that's not a police overreaction dont know what is. Will only get worse imo given these apparent revenge shootings on police last night - both police and those approached by the police will be even edgier now.

 

[Hobbit]

"Black people are three times more likely to be killed by police in the United States than white people. More unarmed black people were killed by police than unarmed white people last year. And that's taking into account the fact that black people are only 14% of the population here.

The point I was trying to very carefully make was that the ratios of people shot within the different ethnic groups is very similar. The number of whites shot is significantly higher, but so is the white population.

And it also depends on where you get the stats. According to the Washington Post, blacks are 9 times, not 3, more likely to be shot by the Police.

 

[Hacker Khan]

But were not the two victims in Minnesota and South Carolina both armed, certainly that was what was said on C4 News last night.

Whether they were likely to use their guns or represented any threat to the Police Officers involved is more relevant and relates back to Hobbit's point that the problem lies with a society awash with firearms, many held legally, where the watchword appears to be "Shoot first, ask questions later!"

I agree that there is a question if someone had a licence to carry a concealed weapon then is that armed and would constitute a threat to the police? But whilst the prevalence of firearms is obviously going to make police jumpy at the best of times, it can't be seem to be an excuse, especially if there is some statistical evidence that one race suffers disproportionately more than another from the jumpy police. Especially as white people are twice as likely to own a gun than black or Hispanic people in the US. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...aphics-and-politics-of-gun-owning-households/

I'm sure those of us of a certain age can remember vaguely similar things around the suss laws in which black and other ethnic minorities were much more likely to be stopped. Which led to the Brixton riots. But as you argue, the fact that it is in the US seems to mean that instead of arresting people they are being shot, and instead of rioting the police are being murdered. Still, I'm sure Trump will calm down all this kind of thing.....

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I agree that there is a question if someone had a licence to carry a concealed weapon then is that armed and would constitute a threat to the police? But whilst the prevalence of firearms is obviously going to make police jumpy at the best of times, it can't be seem to be an excuse, especially if there is some statistical evidence that one race suffers disproportionately more than another from the jumpy police. Especially as white people are twice as likely to own a gun than black or Hispanic people in the US. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...aphics-and-politics-of-gun-owning-households/

I'm sure those of us of a certain age can remember vaguely similar things around the suss laws in which black and other ethnic minorities were much more likely to be stopped. Which led to the Brixton riots. But as you argue, the fact that it is in the US seems to mean that instead of arresting people they are being shot, and instead of rioting the police are being murdered. Still, I'm sure Trump will calm down all this kind of thing.....

Hope my post wasn't read as in any way condoning or excusing the actions of the Police.

What I was suggesting was that US society, in general, is far too eager to resort to the gun; be that the authorities or the public at large.

I appreciate that TV dramas are fiction but to, at least, some extent they will reflect a society's attitudes and it never ceases to amaze me that it is considered normal for the police to almost instinctively draw their weapons when challenging or pursuing suspects or "persons of interest".

I have mentioned this to American friends but to them it appears to be both normal and acceptable.

 

[Aztecs27]

If only those Police officers had guns to protect themselves....oh...wait...

 

[Lump]

they'll never learn, best just to leave them too it.

 

[FairwayDodger]

This is a difficult subject, I think. And I am sure the OP didn't intend his post to come across as badly as it sounded.

Of course all lives matter but you can say "black lives matter" without negating that. It is instinctive, normal and quite correct for persecuted minorities to come together to fight prejudice, discrimination and intimidation.

Maybe that is hard to understand if you haven't experienced it yourself.

 

[JD2773]

I'm fairly certain that there is a degree of prejudice, stereotyping and in certain cases outright hostility and racism amongst certain groups of individuals in every police force regardless of which country they are from.

We only have to look in this country at the recent inquests into incidents such as the hillsborough stadium disaster or further back the shooting of Jean Charles De Menezes to realise that these things can happen here as well.

What is worrying about the US is that these incidents appear to be more frequently reported and often appear to have more tragic consequences. This is certainly likely to be in part due to the very lax gun control that is enshrined in their constitution. For police officers I imagine that this creates an increased perception of risk when potentially everyone you stop and interact with may have the potential to attack and kill you with a firearm.

 

[Hobbit]

This is a difficult subject, I think. And I am sure the OP didn't intend his post to come across as badly as it sounded.

Of course all lives matter but you can say "black lives matter" without negating that. It is instinctive, normal and quite correct for persecuted minorities to come together to fight prejudice, discrimination and intimidation.

Maybe that is hard to understand if you haven't experienced it yourself.

It is an exceptionally hard subject to get across without striking the right tone, and dare I say you actually appear to have taken it exactly the opposite way I intended. Maybe as much through my clumsiness as your sensitivity.

My intention was to highlight that the stats suggest that the Police don't discriminate, and are guilty of shooting comparable ratios. Rather than just pillar the Police for their attacks on blacks it was to suggest that they should also castigated for their attacks on all ethnicities.
​

As for not understanding discrimination because I haven't experienced it; my (adopted) sister is black, and I've more than had my fill of white trash and the beatings they've dished out. I've lived abroad and suffered extensive racism to the point of being stabbed as part of a racially motivated beating. And my youngest daughter's partner is female. So please don't lecture me about discrimination.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Certainly wasn't my intention to lecture, just to point out that the post made me cringe as it read as if you were having a go at "black lives matter" rather than the police. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

 

[MegaSteve]

Don't believe we will ever get our heads around the mind set that deems it acceptable [normal in fact] to carry firearms... The consequences of which are blindingly obvious but seemingly go unseen...

 

[Tashyboy]

Very difficult subject to comment on without coming across as not understanding black issues.
I said last night to Missis T that this sort of thing would happen. You only had to see the programme on the telly a couple of weeks ago where black people were openly marching in the streets in parades demonstrating that " they had had enough of the so called killings of fellow blacks". Nothing at all to do with black power. Some of the firearms they were carrying were frightening, inc snipers rifles. They said that they were prepared to use them. One group has used them, how long before another group supports its brothers in another premeditated attack.

Which then leads to the question once more of " guns on streets", the pro gun people say the answer to that is to have more guns on the streets. If that is the case then 60 cops could of been killed last night not 6.

The "serve and protect" motto of the police in the USA is looking a bit hypocritical at the moment if you are black.

Sad times.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

I'm sure those of us of a certain age can remember vaguely similar things around the suss laws in which black and other ethnic minorities were much more likely to be stopped. Which led to the Brixton riots.

I remember being paired up once with an army sergeant who was seconded to the Met to train them on suss. He wasn't racist but...(of course ) He said he just took the coppers to Brixton where you pulled over 3 cars and when they opened the window you searched the one that smelled funny. Even easier than with the Paddies...It was just a way of having fun for him. He wanted a negative reaction so he had an excuse to beat them up.
Horrible man, but given his explanation of how he hurt his hand I wasn't going to argue too strongly against him.

I'm sure there are plenty of decent coppers in the States, but I think that not looking for the racists is only going to be seen as supporting them. I think there has to be seen to be a positive outcome in support of the minorities in America soon or it's only going to go one way.

 

[shewy]

Work with a few yanks and they showed me some stats on gun crime, as usual the media don't report when another race gets killed, seemed to me plenty of other races were being shot as well.
The thing is they are all carrying so where do you start, if I was a cop I'd be jumpy as hell, plenty of them shot as well but not reported.
Not saying any of this is justified, they are all mental anyway with those gun laws!

 

[sawtooth]

I'm running out of patience and sympathy for this sort of thing.

You reap what you sow I am afraid.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Strip everything away and it's lives being lost

Minorities on both sides affecting the majority

Feel sympathy for anyone innocent who has lost their son or husband or wife or daughter etc -

I hope one day they may wake up and realise how damaging their gun laws are

 

[Hacker Khan]

Hope my post wasn't read as in any way condoning or excusing the actions of the Police.

What I was suggesting was that US society, in general, is far too eager to resort to the gun; be that the authorities or the public at large.

I appreciate that TV dramas are fiction but to, at least, some extent they will reflect a society's attitudes and it never ceases to amaze me that it is considered normal for the police to almost instinctively draw their weapons when challenging or pursuing suspects or "persons of interest".

I have mentioned this to American friends but to them it appears to be both normal and acceptable.

Nope, not to me it wasn't, completely understood what you were saying.