Congu "Rule 19"

[backwoodsman]

I was under the impression that handicap adjustments based on General Play (rule 19 as most people knew it) had been done away with? And replaced by ESR. But looking at the Congu manual, it seems it still exists, but now in Clause 23 (23.7 to 23.9).

Am i reading it correctly and people can still be adjusted based on general play or "observation"? And if so, what would count as "exceptional circumstances" under these sub-clauses?

Ta

 

[Fyldewhite]

I think it changed to Clause 23 in 2008 maybe earlier? Since then there have been a number of developments to assist Handicap Committees to implement it in a fair and consistent manner. The "ESR flagging" is one such example. I've not been involved for a couple of years now but the changes were always optional and had to be confirmed by the committee (this may have changed), but the basic rule that it's a committee decision based on Clause 23 hasn't changed. As for interpretation, committees can still include information such as performance in 4BBB comps, matchplay knock-outs etc which will never be available through the normal qualifying record or any reports based on that. Basically, the H/Cap Committee is still King.....just!

 

[backwoodsman]

Interesting...

At the weekend, someone posed the question " you can't be cut on general play anymore can you ?". And we all said "no". Seems we were wrong.

 

[rulefan]

Interesting...

At the weekend, someone posed the question " you can't be cut on general play anymore can you ?". And we all said "no". Seems we were wrong.

What it means is that you can't be cut on general play alone. Exceptional general play can be used as supporting evidence when doing the Annual Review (which didn't exist when clause 19 was about).

 

[delc]

Our club has just carried out its annual handicap review. A few players have gone up or a stroke. One old boy has had his handicap increased from 28 to 30, so we have obviously adopted the new higher handicap limits.

 

[backwoodsman]

What it means is that you can't be cut on general play alone. Exceptional general play can be used as supporting evidence when doing the Annual Review (which didn't exist when clause 19 was about).

This is what confuses me. I thought review was only done at Annual Review but clause 23.7 says adjustment can be done in the "period between Annual Reviews" - which suggests it can be done at times other than the AR. Or am l missing something crucial?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You can cut on general play in exceptional circumstances - Non Q comps where someone shoots the life out of the course for example , can also be used when injuries come into play etc.

It's there to give the HC committee the flexibility to adjust if there was an expecptional reason

But it can't be used to cut everyone and anyone as they see fit

 

[rosecott]

Our club has just carried out its annual handicap review. A few players have gone up or a stroke. One old boy has had his handicap increased from 28 to 30, so we have obviously adopted the new higher handicap limits.

And his handicap is no longer a CONGU Competition Handicap but is now a CONGU Club Handicap and your committee must have decided if any competition restrictions apply.

 

[rosecott]

This is what confuses me. I thought review was only done at Annual Review but clause 23.7 says adjustment can be done in the "period between Annual Reviews" - which suggests it can be done at times other than the AR. Or am l missing something crucial?

Rulefan may have confused you in his post. The Handicap Committee can adjust handicaps in the period between Annual Reviews but only in exceptional circumstances.

 

[Old Skier]

You can cut on general play in exceptional circumstances - Non Q comps where someone shoots the life out of the course for example , can also be used when injuries come into play etc.

Im not sure this is correct but am willing to be corrected. Could you point me in the direction where it mentions this in the CONGU handbook.

I always thought that doing someone on a single comp was a complete no no.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Im not sure this is correct but am willing to be corrected. Could you point me in the direction where it mentions this in the CONGU handbook.

I always thought that doing someone on a single comp was a complete no no.

Was confirmed by the county when it was applied at the club last year and after speak to congu representatives - it can be classed as "exceptional circunstances" if it's the right thing to do - ie using your judgement.

The handbook won't ever cover every single outcome and at times people need to apply common sense and logic

 

[Old Skier]

Was confirmed by the county when it was applied at the club last year and after speak to congu representatives - it can be classed as "exceptional circunstances" if it's the right thing to do - ie using your judgement.

The handbook won't ever cover every single outcome and at times people need to apply common sense and logic

Seems they need to get their act together because we were told exactly the opposite at our meeting this Jan. Very confusing.

 

[rulefan]

You can cut on general play in exceptional circumstances - Non Q comps where someone shoots the life out of the course for example , can also be used when injuries come into play etc.

It's there to give the HC committee the flexibility to adjust if there was an expecptional reason

But it can't be used to cut everyone and anyone as they see fit

The last sentence is correct.

However one exceptional score in whatever circumstances cannot be used to justify an adjustment. The 'between annual reviews' review must follow the annual review principles.

Your example would qualify as a 'knee jerk' reaction, which is expressly forbidden.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The last sentence is correct.

However one exceptional score in whatever circumstances cannot be used to justify an adjustment. The 'between annual reviews' review must follow the annual review principles.

Your example would qualify as a 'knee jerk' reaction, which is expressly forbidden.

Yet wasn't forbidden by both the county and congu

 

[rulefan]

And his handicap is no longer a CONGU Competition Handicap but is now a CONGU Club Handicap and your committee must have decided if any competition restrictions apply.

Not quite. A handicap over 28 (36) is a Club Handicap not a CONGU Club Handicap.
The feature of a CONGU Handicap is that it has two categories; Competition and non-competition. All Club Handicaps have no sub category, they are in effect non-competition but not classified as such.

 

[rulefan]

Yet wasn't forbidden by both the county and congu

I can't answer for your county but I suspect there was more to it than just one score.
I am surprised CONGU seem to be involved as they have no jurisdiction over clubs or counties. They do not feature at the top of the appeals tree. All ultimate decisions are vested in the relevant national union.

I can confirm what Old Skier was told.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I can't answer for your county but I suspect there was more to it than just one score.
I am surprised CONGU seem to be involved as they have no jurisdiction over clubs or counties. They do not feature at the top of the appeals tree. All ultimate decisions are vested in the relevant national union.

I can confirm what Old Skier was told.

I spoke to them and asked their advice in regards someone's HC and what I could do in the event of no qualifying comps and someone clearly playing better than his HC over winter due to big improvement

We had a non qualifying comp which he then won by a clear distance from everyone else and spoke to Congu Rep and County to see a HC cut could be applied and they said yes.

 

[rosecott]

Not quite. A handicap over 28 (36) is a Club Handicap not a CONGU Club Handicap.
The feature of a CONGU Handicap is that it has two categories; Competition and non-competition. All Club Handicaps have no sub category, they are in effect non-competition but not classified as such.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not quite". It is described as CONGU Club Handicap in the CONGU manual

 

[Foxholer]

I spoke to them and asked their advice in regards someone's HC and what I could do in the event of no qualifying comps and someone clearly playing better than his HC over winter due to big improvement

We had a non qualifying comp which he then won by a clear distance from everyone else and spoke to Congu Rep and County to see a HC cut could be applied and they said yes.

So NOT simply 1 exceptional score!

As Rulefan pointed out, there was 'more to it than just the 1 score' - the observed improvement over Winter!

Knee-jerk reactions to one-off good scores is expressly forbidden, but this wasn't one of those, so Ok-ed.

 

[Old Skier]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not quite". It is described as CONGU Club Handicap in the CONGU manual

I think it is a CONGU handicap but not eligible for "C" status unless it's a handicap issued to a disabled golfer.