CONGU handicap system - ruinous to Golf

balaclava

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Why because it has made Golf in the UK an onerous endurance test and not FUN!!

I’ve recently returned to live in the UK and joined my local club having never played golf in this country; I am disappointed by what I find. Specifically I refer to the golf on offer in the standard club organised competitions and more specifically I refer to Medal competitions.

Golf in my previous country of residence was competitive and challenging but it was FUN. Medal was so unpopular, a vote was taken by the general membership to ban it to just one competition per month. Medal may be the truest test of a golfer’s skill but it is more of an ordeal and test of endurance than FUN. In my previous country over 90% of competitions were Stableford and all competitions were 4 ball. I was trudging round the golf course the other week and I asked a member why all the competitions here were 3 ball; “because playing 4 ball would take too long” he replied. I replied, “the reason 4 ball takes so long is because you’re playing Medal and were spending time looking for balls and walking back to the T to go again, if you played Stableford all that drudgery is gone.” It went over the top of his head because being a human being he (and you) presume that what you’ve been doing all your golfing life is as it should be because it was ordained by God as an addendum on the back of the tablet containing the Ten Commandments! What you don’t realise is what you’re missing. In my previous country because all competitions were Stableford and all were 4 balls, the balls there was always a ‘private’ better ball competition within the competition and that was FUN.

Of the many golfers I have spoken to about this all have said that they would prefer Stableford over Medal !! I played the other week with a member of the clubs Handicap/Competitions committee and I asked him the same questions. He replied that they played Medal because the single figure handicap golfers preferred it believing that Stableford benefited high handicap golfers. “What percentage of the membership are in single figures,” I asked? “Very few” he replied!!!

Another reply I have commonly received from members is that all competitions must be Medal because only Medal competitions qualify for handicap. Of course that’s not correct but that is a view commonly held. Certainly I get a clear impression that golfers here accept the drudgery of Medal because they feel the weekly battle is the ordained path to the Holy Grail of a lower handicap.

Of course the architects of CONGU will now be asking what’s all this got to do with them?

Another commonly misguided belief I have found here is that golfers presume that every country uses the CONGU handicap system. There may be another country that uses that system but I don’t know of any and I have played golf in a few different countries. Every other country I’ve played in takes every game, social or otherwise, into account when calculating a handicap. Because (normal) people tend to play better golf socially rather than in competition and because (normal) people tend to play better golf playing Stableford than Medal this produces a (lower and) truer reflection of the golfers ability (handicap). Because the UK has the CONGU system and because that systems only allows handicaps to be calculated on club competitions this somehow has been interpreted as all competitions should be Medal competitions!!

Of course nothing’s going to change because of what I have said here or elsewhere but I feel so much better for getting that off my chest :)
 
Wow, thats some first post!

Did you get the hump at having to watch yon Last Choir Standing thingy on the BBC ?

Couple of points though, Medal play is a strokeplay format, exactly the same as stableford, par, bogey etc. Its just a way of playing the course and recording the score for handicap purposes.

"Medal Play Conditions prevail during Stroke Play, Par and Stableford competitions over 18 holes under the Rules of Golf from Medal Tees."

"A Qualifying Competition is any competition in which Medal Play Conditions prevail and for handicap adjustment and record purposes full handicap allowance is applied and a Competition Scratch Score is calculated, subject to restrictions and limitations contained in the System or imposed by the Unions – (see clauses 9.2(c) and 14.2(g)).

When the conditions of a competition impose handicap limits to establish a result it will be a Qualifying Competition provided full handicap allowance is applied for handicap adjustment and record purposes."

As to the problems with lost balls, I can empathise on this, why people don't play a provisional when they may be in trouble is beyond me, state it is a provisional, play it and then pick it up if you fins the original, simple realy.

Hope you get your head round competition golf back in the UK, hope you enjoy the Foruum, it's a good place for a bit of golf related banter !

cheers

DCB
 
Balaclava........I'm somewhat with you on this(only somewhat mind)Reasoning is that captains day was called off today so I went and played myself later on this p.m. Gross score 6 over for front 9(I'm playing off 24)If I was allowed to I'd put my card in and hope!!!!!The other side of the coin is ...put a scorecard in my hand and I'm gone!Obviously a state of mind or inability to switch off!!!
 
Sorry people alsmeant to add does anyone else feel about this(or would this procedure kill us highly intelektrowals,people who get uptight and think to much)help to add to our handicap go up and up???Got the words muddled there!That's whats happens when you're home alone and you can have one(or 2)bottles of wine!!!!!!!!
 
Did Harry Vardon, Bobby Jones, James Braid, Walter Hagan et al found the game on stableford, no!

Golf in its true form is medal play. Stableford, bogey...etc are variations of the game, not THE game.

I agree in parts, Stableford is more fun but it allows a player (yes, higher handicap players mainly) to have stupid holes and still have a chance of winning. To me, thats not the game. Forget stableford points and even par to an extent. The aim of the game is to get round the course in the least amount of shots. Picking up because you've had 7 shots at a hole is defeatist and allows an easy way out.

Why can't you make medal play fun would be my question? players shouldn't (in theory) be walking back to play 3 off the tee, they should have played a provisional. As to the comment lower hc players preferring medal and thats why is mainly played - b*ll*cks! Medal is the game played mostly because medal IS the game.

for clarity - medal = strokeplay
 
Absolutely Mark, Medal for competitions, stableford for fun in my book. Our captains day this year is to be off our middle tees and stableford....Words fail me, basically this firmly shuts the door on low handicappers as 44 points is easily done by a high handicapper but nigh impossible for the lower better golfers, this might sound a little elitist but to equate this to another sport, darts for instance, its like giving the experienced players one dart board with standard sized multiple areas and another with inflated doubles and trebles for the "higher handicapper".
Im not saying everyone should play of the same handicap but for the bigger competitions of the year, strokeplay should be king.

Did Harry Vardon, Bobby Jones, James Braid, Walter Hagan et al found the game on stableford, no!

Golf in its true form is medal play. Stableford, bogey...etc are variations of the game, not THE game.

I agree in parts, Stableford is more fun but it allows a player (yes, higher handicap players mainly) to have stupid holes and still have a chance of winning. To me, thats not the game. Forget stableford points and even par to an extent. The aim of the game is to get round the course in the least amount of shots. Picking up because you've had 7 shots at a hole is defeatist and allows an easy way out.

Why can't you make medal play fun would be my question? players shouldn't (in theory) be walking back to play 3 off the tee, they should have played a provisional. As to the comment lower hc players preferring medal and thats why is mainly played - b*ll*cks! Medal is the game played mostly because medal IS the game.

for clarity - medal = strokeplay
 
In my club we play a medal competition one Sunday a month. Every other weekend we play a Stableford on Sat off the Yellows on on Sunday off the Whites. We also play a number of 3 man or 4 man team events during the course of the year. Prizes are provided according to class so the low handicappers can win their own class and there is no major gripes about High Handicappers winning all the competitions.

Our stableford competitions qualify for handicap adjustments.

Personally i have no preference for the type of competition but medal is the truest and toughest type of competition.

But variety is the spice of life.
 
Interesting post. My handicap is not an official one, but one which I monitor after each round of golf I play. I play my round as strokeplay as that is where my goals are; break 80 etc.

Based on reading from the CONGU site, I calculate handicap adjustments from stableford score. The buffer zone is 33-36 and you work from there; more than 36 points then multiply the points over 36 by the adjustment for your category. Below 33 points, +0.1 to your h'cap.

So to me, CONGU works, but that all comes down to the medals that the clubs play. When I was in the UK, I was more than happy with a Wednesday and Saturday medal based on strokeplay - the game is all about how many shots you take, less your handicap. Stableford is a more fun game, as those 8's on the card don't kill your round.

To me, medals should be strokeplay to show a true picture of your full round.
 
Our senior section adjusts it's handicaps on the results of stableford rollups but our club handicaps are decided on the monthly senior medal.
I had the second highest score in Thursday's medal and was raised a miserable .1 on my club H/C.
 
DCB,

Thank you for explaining (for those that didn’t know) that Stableford competitions are ‘qualifying competitions’ for the purposes of handicap adjustment.

What you didn’t explain is why, when the majority of golfers would prefer to play Stableford, we are subjected to the torture of Medal?

Marko77 appeared to confirm my belief that Medal is preferred by those who like pain or like to see others in pain!

Brendy confirms the suggestion that lower HC players prefer Medal because Stableford gives higher HC players an advantage. (And quite right too Brendy why should they win competitions when they can’t play proper golf. . . And, why don’t we ban HC’s altogether (I’m off 16 btw)).
 
I'm not sure I'm understanding this thread a great deal.
What I do understand though (much to my annoyance) is that almost every competition at my club seems to be "invalid" for h'cap purposes. I was given my h'cap off yellow tees (not a shot EVER played off the whites) and told that it would gradually move up or down to reflect my scores.
Some of you that have read my rants on this will know my situation.
We have a mid-week summer 9 hole "league"....no one gets adjusted on this. Some folks have been scoring 20-24 points on 9 holes for 6 or 7 weeks running and get no cut. Others of us are coming in with 12-15 points and no-one bats an eyelid. NOW, I absolutely appreciate that you can't adjust on 9 hole scores, but at my old clubs, folks were cut under general play for these type of shenanigans. So, I've boycotted this event and decided to turn my attention ONLY proper 18 hole comps. I've played in 4 since my post ("decision about my golf") only to discover that ALL four were NOT suitable for h'cap adjustment. !!!??!!

Now, reading this from dcb (who knows his stuff)
I'm beginning to understand what it going on. Basically, there are only 2 comps a month that look suitable, that fulfill this criteria


"Medal Play Conditions prevail during Stroke Play, Par and Stableford competitions over 18 holes under the Rules of Golf from Medal Tees."

"A Qualifying Competition is any competition in which Medal Play Conditions prevail and for handicap adjustment and record purposes full handicap allowance is applied and a Competition Scratch Score is calculated, subject to restrictions and limitations contained in the System or imposed by the Unions – (see clauses 9.2(c) and 14.2(g)).

So, unless I can make the once a month men's medal or the once a month mid-week medal I'm wasting my time expecting to get moved up or down. ALL the other stuff (played off yellows) is simply not looked at. The guys making 40-44 points off yellows are not getting cut and all of us given low h'caps (about 12-15 new members) are only going to move in 24 comps a year???

I'm fed up with it. It's a disgrace. How can any system possibly work if the other 140+ competitions are completely ignored.

HOW CAN ANY H'CAP SECRETARY SIT THERE AND PRETEND THE CLUB H'CAPS ARE ACCURATE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. :(
 
realgolferuk,

If your club are playing a stableford comp off the yellow tees and are playing off full Hcp then there are bound to be high points scores in, by the nature of the course setup, the yellow tees are bound to be further forward than the medal (white) tees. If they are doing this on a regular basis, then there should be a drop in the hcp allowance to bring everythin into line. ie 7/8ths or 3/4s that would bring points into line with hcps. Unfortunately the actual handicaps can't be revised as its not the full measured course thats being played. Committee need to look at that to sort that out.

We play all our strokeplay comps from the white tees, that way, they are all counting comps. You mark down your score and put your card in at the end of the round.

A group I play with at work play various courses over a year and like most society type outings we play of yellow tees on the courses we visit. We try to adopt a fair way of using hcps by allowing 3/4 or 7/8 of hcp. Some courses we have played there are considerable distances between medal and yellow tees.

Anyway its a game that we're supposed to enjoy, so don't think of the numbers just go out and play as well as you can, as long as you see improvement in your own game its all fine as far as I'm concerned.
 
HOW CAN ANY H'CAP SECRETARY SIT THERE AND PRETEND THE CLUB H'CAPS ARE ACCURATE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. :(

Regardless of what tee you play off or what format of competition is used, if it is a competition then a CSS will be determined. If players are getting full handicap then it is the same level playing field for all?

Some players at some clubs should maybe start to concentrate on what the CSS is likely to be rather than par as I know for example the yellow tees at my main club is 3 shots under par. The whites are 1 so I know standing on the first tee in a comp of the yellow I have to be at least 1 under handicap to make buffer.

And......all stableford comps at my club are qualifying - we have one main stableford a month plus some other comps as stableford.

As for describing medal play as enjoying pain or enjoying seeing others in pain, oh yeah, I forgot there are sooo many PGA Tour events played using stableford. Us amateurs must be missing a trick somewhere...... :D
 
Anyway its a game that we're supposed to enjoy, so don't think of the numbers just go out and play as well as you can, as long as you see improvement in your own game its all fine as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly!
 
Unfortunately the actual handicaps can't be revised as its not the full measured course thats being played. Committee need to look at that to sort that out.

So, unless I misunderstand.....

ideally we should either
1) play non-medals (s'ford,bogey etc) off whites or
2) ask the committee to consider setting a variable CSS for comps off yellows.

Anyway its a game that we're supposed to enjoy, so don't think of the numbers just go out and play as well as you can, as long as you see improvement in your own game its all fine as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not one for numbers per se.....all I want to do is get my h'cap moved up and down in line with how I (and all the rest of the club) play. It seems to me that with a computerised system it wouldn't be difficult to make almost all comps "qualifying". I know chaps that play EVERY week in the Sunday roll up.....that's 52 games a year and NO h'cap move, ever :(
 
[/QUOTE]I know chaps that play EVERY week in the Sunday roll up.....that's 52 games a year and NO h'cap move, ever :(

[/QUOTE]

Me too.

How can you expect to have a good measure of a persons game on 3 (or is it 6) games a year. Coming from outside I can see how rediculous the system is. But people being people, nobody likes to admit that they've slavishly been following a stupid system. But then some people just like to make life difficult for themselves!
 
But until CONGU come up with something different we are stuck with it and have to make the best of it.

Just get out there and play and enjoy it.
 
But until CONGU come up with something different we are stuck with it and have to make the best of it.

Just get out there and play and enjoy it.

Firstly, I do get out there and enjoy it.....no worries there!

Secondly, I'm wondering if there had been some sort of major shift since stopping playing in late 90's and starting again in 2007.

Previously, I would visit the club once a week to check out the results and h'cap changes. My impression was that, in the main, any type of proper game could bring in a move up or down. Since starting at the new club, I pop in, spot the results and there's no adjustment sheets....apart from some 3-week-ago medal. I am deducing that therefore the new system is less rigorous than the old. It seems to me that IF congu are running the show then they are shooting themselves in the foot by allowing clubs to play endless comps (including some off white) that don't qualify.

If I may quote, they themselves have introduced a system to revue h'caps for players not handing in enough qualifying cards.

" Although golf club Committees and administrators may consider that in the course of a playing season they organise an adequate number of competitions to provide ample opportunity for Members to participate, investigation has confirmed that a substantial number of Members do not return sufficient scores in the period between Annual Reviews to maintain a handicap that reasonably reflects their current ability. This may in part be due to:

.) Work or family commitments preventing participation in competitions.
.) Difficulty in obtaining an acceptable starting time on competition days in clubs with a large playing membership.
.) A declining desire to play regular competitive golf."

I think they should add the expression .) A lack of competitions that actually count for h'cap purposes under our new crappy system. :D

Now, I wouldn't give a stuff about the system if I WAS being moved up and down accordingly, but a system that
allows players to go out, make a "properly verified" score and then ignores those scores is simply crazy. The point is, h'cap secretaries have the power to issue a new h'cap based on "flimsy" evidence, but then have their hands tied with getting keen competitive players to an accurate figure because of congu. I did enquire about a re-h'cap based on the endless non-q score cards I've submitted but was told to forget it. If you issue a new h'cap based on the best of three cards, then chop off another two or three shots for safety's sake, then that player should have the RIGHT to be adjusted on ALL cards submitted over the first 6 months of play. If a new player makes those scores off the white, the yellow, mats, ladies tees, whatever.....there ought to be a CSS for the day, and then that CSS applied to ALL new players.

I kept my side of the bargain....I joined, paid my 2 fees, found 3 games to join in on (including a compulsory game with a senior committee member) and have subsequently played in loads of comps for what......nothing.....

I WANT A PROPER H'CAP. Sure, one day I might go round in single figures and then the next shoot 20 over gross......so my 12 may well be bang on......but at least the system should offer a sporting chance to get adjusted fairly and FREQUENTLY.

Rant over, sorry DCB, I know you're just getting me to see sense......
 
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