CONGU Club Handicaps

[Crazyface]

Hi, a question came up at a meeting last night. If members have been given one of those new CONGU club handicaps can they still play in club competitions...ie Medals?

I think they can as long as they play using a H/C no higher than 28. Am I right?

 

[duncan mackie]

You seem to be looking at it the wrong way round.

1.The new club handicaps are not a CONGU handicap as such. They are a club handicap administered by the club's on their systems (in the same way as the CONGU ones).
2. The whole point of clubs using these is to enable members to compete in competitions with a handicap over 28.

 

[rulefan]

Hi, a question came up at a meeting last night. If members have been given one of those new CONGU club handicaps can they still play in club competitions...ie Medals?

I think they can as long as they play using a H/C no higher than 28. Am I right?

It is upto the club whether or not they can play. They may let them play in order to get a handicap adjustment but their score will not count in the handicap competition result nor is it included in any CSS calculation.
Their handicap is individually adjusted against SSS.

The club determines whether they may qualify for a prize and whether the prize is awarded for playing off 28 or their Club handicap.

I believe many clubs are allowing all CONGU and CONGU Club players to play at the same time but are in effect running two parallel competitions.

The handicap is entitled a CONGU Club Handicap.

 

[Crazyface]

We have no desire to start running competitions for anyone over a H/C of 28, but just supposing that we allowed someone to have a "club H/C". Does this mean there CANNOT play in any club competition that has a max h/c entry of 28? Sort of like if you ran a Major at your place that had a restriction of H/C's up to and including 18, but allowed member to play in that had a H/C of say 26 but only allowed them to use 18 of those strokes?

The opinion was, last night, according to CONGU, that anyone with a "club H/C" of say 32 could not compete in any of an affiated clubs competitions even if they were only using 28 of those 32 shots.

 

[Fyldewhite]

I'm no longer involved committee wise and I don't think our club is having them anyway but I'd imagine clubs can administer this on a comp by comp basis. By applying a max handicap limit for (say) a monthly medal of 28 and not doing so in (say) the weekly seniors stableford, all players can take part, adjustments will happen and the objective of winners of bigger comps being off a "proper" handicap will be achieved.

 

[BTatHome]

What would be the point of giving someone a higher 'club' handicap and then never allowing them to play a competition with that handicap? It would seem to have been a waste of time doing the admin to allow higher handicaps in the first place.

 

[Crazyface]

So they can use it to play in with the friendly mixed / lads role ups without anyone accusing them of not having a proper H/C. If they had a decent knock the lads would make sure the card would be popped into the H/C Sec's in box.

 

[Crazyface]

Can they play in comps only using 28 of their allocated shots? This would mean they could still join in playing comps.

 

[Old Skier]

So they can use it to play in with the friendly mixed / lads role ups without anyone accusing them of not having a proper H/C. If they had a decent knock the lads would make sure the card would be popped into the H/C Sec's in box.

If the handicap committee are doing the job correctly it is a PROPER all be it CONGU Club Handicap.

Its up to the rules of the comp whether they can play or not. As a club that encourages lesser ability golfers they can play in any internal club comp of their club handicap.

A card handed in by a group when it was deemed a decent knock would not be considered by a club HC committee,

If your club are not allowing those with a handicap higher than 28 how would it deal with a disabled golfer with a legitimate CONGU HC of 36 if they appeared at an open?

 

[Old Skier]

The opinion was, last night, according to CONGU, that anyone with a "club H/C" of say 32 could not compete in any of an affiated clubs competitions even if they were only using 28 of those 32 shots.

I think you will find that the opinion is wrong. Where there is a handicap max for a comp as long as they only play of the max then there is no problem. Its no different to a 5 handicapper playing in a scratch comp. Do any of your club HC or other committees ever go to the EG and CONGU roadshows.

 

[Crazyface]

Sorry, I wasn't including Disabled golfers. Apologies if any offence.

So, owners of "club H/C's" CAN play in CONGU rules clubs comps if that club allows them to , albeit only allowing them to play off 28/.

 

[fundy]

The way it was explained to our committee by the handicap sec after he went to one of the roadshows was that we can choose to allow them to enter off their club handicap (eg 33) or we can only allow entrants off 28 or below but that we are not allowed to let someone who has a club handicap of eg 33 play in a club comp off 28 (which was how I expected it would work for board comps). Have to admit at the time it didnt make full sense to me and it makes less having written it down now, so would love to know if it is indeed correct

 

[rulefan]

The way it was explained to our committee by the handicap sec after he went to one of the roadshows was that we can choose to allow them to enter off their club handicap (eg 33) or we can only allow entrants off 28 or below but that we are not allowed to let someone who has a club handicap of eg 33 play in a club comp off 28 (which was how I expected it would work for board comps). Have to admit at the time it didnt make full sense to me and it makes less having written it down now, so would love to know if it is indeed correct

That is correct.

To play in a qualifier you need to have a CONGU handicap. A player with a CONGU Club handicap hasn't got (and can't have) a CONGU Handicap.

But just to remind people, a Club handicap player's score does not contribute to the CSS calculation in any way. Similarly but not the same, the score of a player with a handicap of 24 playing in a 18 limit comp is counted as 24 cap when the CSS calc is done.

The only relevance of such 'adjusted or artificial' handicaps is for prize purposes alone.
I suspect many clubs have a relatively high number or members who cannot play to 28. Why not give them the facility to play for their own prizes?
Of course the UK is completely out of step with the rest of the world. Perhaps it explains why UK club membership is still going down but up in Europe and Asia.

 

[fundy]

That is correct.

To play in a qualifier you need to have a CONGU handicap. A player with a CONGU Club handicap hasn't got (and can't have) a CONGU Handicap.

But just to remind people, a Club handicap player's score does not contribute to the CSS calculation in any way. Similarly but not the same, the score of a player with a handicap of 24 playing in a 18 limit comp is counted as 24 cap when the CSS calc is done.

The only relevance of such 'adjusted or artificial' handicaps is for prize purposes alone.
I suspect many clubs have a relatively high number or members who cannot play to 28. Why not give them the facility to play for their own prizes?
Of course the UK is completely out of step with the rest of the world. Perhaps it explains why UK club membership is still going down but up in Europe and Asia.

Thanks rulefan the bolded bit was the missing link in my understanding and makes sense now.

 

[BTatHome]

So they can use it to play in with the friendly mixed / lads role ups without anyone accusing them of not having a proper H/C. If they had a decent knock the lads would make sure the card would be popped into the H/C Sec's in box.

but there is no reason for that to happen, as their h/cap not be changed in these circumstances. If you have not allowed to enter your comp then their handicap will remain the same for the whole year. If you restrict them to only playing but off a much reduced shot allowance then their handicap will only ever go up.

 

[Old Skier]

Sorry, I wasn't including Disabled golfers. Apologies if any offence.

None taken but as you intimated that your club would not hold competitions for players with a handicap greater than 28 I was wondering how you would deal with the problem if a disabled golfer with a legitimate handicap which is greater than 28 would be treated.

 

[Old Skier]

That is correct.

To play in a qualifier you need to have a CONGU handicap. A player with a CONGU Club handicap hasn't got (and can't have) a CONGU Handicap.

Im not sure how correct this bit is as it is my understanding after recent correspondence from CONGU, it is up to clubs to decide which comps players with CONGU Club handicaps can play in and in CONGUs General guidance for clubs, there is no mention of this.

It seems rather odd that a full member paying affiliation fees and their membership should be considered ineligible by some clubs to be able to play in club comps.

 

[rosecott]

That is correct.

To play in a qualifier you need to have a CONGU handicap. A player with a CONGU Club handicap hasn't got (and can't have) a CONGU Handicap.

Im not sure how correct this bit is as it is my understanding after recent correspondence from CONGU, it is up to clubs to decide which comps players with CONGU Club handicaps can play in and in CONGUs General guidance for clubs, there is no mention of this.

It seems rather odd that a full member paying affiliation fees and their membership should be considered ineligible by some clubs to be able to play in club comps.

I will also challenge the statement. Players with CONGU Club Handicaps must play in qualifiers. It is the only way they will ever have any chance of reducing their handicaps - and the handicapping software is geared up to reducing Club Handicaps at a faster rate than CONGU handicaps.

Clubs who have opted to use Club Handicaps may limit entry into specified competitions to those with CONGU handicaps. Our committee decided that if a Club Handicap was a true reflection of ability then they should be allowed to play in all competitions - monitoring is, of course, essential.

Our experience of Club Handicaps is positive. A good number have posted scores which, if they had played off 28, were the best scores they had ever recorded. It seems to give them the confidence to play better without the prospect of coming last yet again.

 

[rulefan]

I will also challenge the statement. Players with CONGU Club Handicaps must play in qualifiers. It is the only way they will ever have any chance of reducing their handicaps - and the handicapping software is geared up to reducing Club Handicaps at a faster rate than CONGU handicaps.

Qualifiers are only for players with CONGU Handicaps. CONGU Club Handicappers can play in competitions which may incidentally be Qualifiers for other players but although their handicap may well result in an adjustment as a result (by reference to the SSS), it is not technically a Qualifying Competition for them. There is no concept of 'c' status for Club Handicaps. They may of course play in other competitions

CONGU Appendix J provides more information.

I certainly support the latter part of your post.

 

[rosecott]

Qualifiers are only for players with CONGU Handicaps. CONGU Club Handicappers can play in competitions which may incidentally be Qualifiers for other players but although their handicap may well result in an adjustment as a result (by reference to the SSS), it is not technically a Qualifying Competition for them. There is no concept of 'c' status for Club Handicaps. They may of course play in other competitions

CONGU Appendix J provides more information.

I certainly support the latter part of your post.

I think we may be talking semantics here. Our Club Handicap players play in our qualifiers on Tuesdays and Fridays every week. I understand that their scores are ignored in the CSS calculation and that their handicap adjustments are calculated separately against SSS but, as far as anyone understands, they are participating in a competition with all the other players, and are, in our club, eligible for both prizes and handicap adjustments - up or hopefully down..