Competition result dispute.

Green Bay Hacker

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On Saturday our stableford comp was won, on countback, with 41 points. I was wondering why the results were not on HDID and have just found out the reason.

Apparently the lad who came out on top played a wayward shot to the eleventh green and ended up in the cabbage. He played a provisional on to the green but then subsequently found his original. He asked one of his FC's who was already on the green to pick up his provisional. The FC picked the ball up but then threw it off the green.

The 'winner' then hacked his next shot out and managed to hit his discarded provisional. Probably irrelevant but the provisional stopped it two feet (max) from where it would have finished. The lad played the ball from where it lay and finished the hole.

All this was witnessed by another group on an adjacent tee who when they had finished their round enquired if he had added any penalty for hitting his own equipment before he signed his card. He said no as his view was that it was put there by an outside agency.

The committee are now going to rule on it before the result is confirmed.

Is the complaint correct?
 

Green Bay Hacker

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Personally, I cannot see how there can be a penalty in these circumstances. Would it have made any difference if the player himself had thrown the ball there?
 

jim8flog

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Decision 19-5/5

19-5/5

Provisional Ball Struck by Original Ball

Q.A player's original ball strikes and moves his provisional ball. What is the ruling?

A.Rule 19-5 does not apply because the provisional ball was not in play. Rule 19-2 does not apply because the provisional ball is not the equipment of the player - see Decision 18/7. In equity (Rule 1-4) and by analogy to Rule 19-5a, the player shall play the ball as it lies and no penalty is incurred except that, in stroke play, if both balls lay on the putting green prior to the stroke, the player incurs a penalty of two strokes.

[h=2]18/7[/h] [h=4]Explanation of "Any Ball He Has Played"[/h] Q.The Definition of "Equipment" excludes "any ball he (the player) has played at the hole being played." What does this mean?

A.The phrase means any ball the player has played at the hole being played except during any period when it has been lifted and has not been put back into play. Accordingly, the ball in play, a provisional ball, a second ball played under Rule 3-3 or Rule 20-7c and a ball being used for practice are not equipment.
 
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doublebogey7

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Decision 19-5/5

19-5/5

Provisional Ball Struck by Original Ball

Q.A player's original ball strikes and moves his provisional ball. What is the ruling?

A.Rule 19-5 does not apply because the provisional ball was not in play. Rule 19-2 does not apply because the provisional ball is not the equipment of the player - see Decision 18/7. In equity (Rule 1-4) and by analogy to Rule 19-5a, the player shall play the ball as it lies and no penalty is incurred except that, in stroke play, if both balls lay on the putting green prior to the stroke, the player incurs a penalty of two strokes.

[h=2]18/7[/h] [h=4]Explanation of "Any Ball He Has Played"[/h] Q.The Definition of "Equipment" excludes "any ball he (the player) has played at the hole being played." What does this mean?

A.The phrase means any ball the player has played at the hole being played except during any period when it has been lifted and has not been put back into play. Accordingly, the ball in play, a provisional ball, a second ball played under Rule 3-3 or Rule 20-7c and a ball being used for practice are not equipment.

So, as the provisional ball has been lifted, it is equipment and therefore the complaint should be upheld?
 

Slab

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The only time I can think of when a golf ball is deemed as equipment under the rules is when that ball is in a golf cart (maybe there's others, Rules guys?)

If not then I guess that's where the claim for a penalty falls down
 

Colin L

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My curiosity is aroused as to why Decision 19-5 is worded as it is. To be pernickety about it, you cannot hit a provisional ball with your original ball. If you play your original ball you have found and identified it at which point your provisional ball is abandoned ie it is no longer provisionally in play. We know that if we play that ball we are playing a wrong ball i.e. it is just the same as any stray ball we are careless enough to play. Why, then, if you hit a ball that is no longer your provisional ball with your original ball should the Decision refer to it as a provisional ball? And why be penalised if both balls lay on the putting green? Does the ball which is no longer a provisional suddenly become your equipment because it is on the putting green?

Must be missing something.:confused:
 

rulie

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My curiosity is aroused as to why Decision 19-5 is worded as it is. To be pernickety about it, you cannot hit a provisional ball with your original ball. If you play your original ball you have found and identified it at which point your provisional ball is abandoned ie it is no longer provisionally in play. We know that if we play that ball we are playing a wrong ball i.e. it is just the same as any stray ball we are careless enough to play. Why, then, if you hit a ball that is no longer your provisional ball with your original ball should the Decision refer to it as a provisional ball? And why be penalised if both balls lay on the putting green? Does the ball which is no longer a provisional suddenly become your equipment because it is on the putting green?

Must be missing something.:confused:
I'll suggest that "abandoning" the ball makes it just a stray ball, not the player's equipment. It would become your equipment again if you were to pick it up.
 

Colin L

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That's entirely my point. Why does the decision refer to a ball which, as you say is just a stray ball, as a provisional ball? I agree that picking it up makes it your equipment but what is the difference between the former provisional ball when it is not on the green and when it is?
 

rulie

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That's entirely my point. Why does the decision refer to a ball which, as you say is just a stray ball, as a provisional ball? I agree that picking it up makes it your equipment but what is the difference between the former provisional ball when it is not on the green and when it is?
What Decision are you referring to?
 

duncan mackie

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That's entirely my point. Why does the decision refer to a ball which, as you say is just a stray ball, as a provisional ball? I agree that picking it up makes it your equipment but what is the difference between the former provisional ball when it is not on the green and when it is?

It's a good question, but I believe the answer lies in the underlying reasons for the Rules and the evolving nature of decisions!

Probably the wider question would be why 19-5a references a ball in play when 19-5b simply references a ball. Taken to the extreme you can't always know whether a specific ball lying on your putting green is a ball in play or not (it could belong to a FC playing another hole, or it could have been lost by a FC playing another hole).
 

backwoodsman

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Various folk have suggested that the provisional ball, which was lifted and thrown to one side, is (or should be regarded as) an abandonded ball. Can that really be the case?

It is a ball "owned" (for want of better word) by player A. Player A presumably has every intention of retrieving said ball - in same way as he would retreive a club placed to one side. If the ball no longer has the status as a provisional ball, then I'm struggling not to regard the ball as the players equipment. (According to decision 18/7, the ball no longer fits the exception from being equipment - because it's been lifted and not put back in play). I don't really see why this ball would be regarded any differently to, say, a load of balls that had accidentally spilled out of a players bag. Would they be regarded as abandoned?

In my mind thats why it is is still regarded as a provisional ball even though the original has been found, and indeed played.
 

Jacko_G

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Various folk have suggested that the provisional ball, which was lifted and thrown to one side, is (or should be regarded as) an abandonded ball. Can that really be the case?

It is a ball "owned" (for want of better word) by player A. Player A presumably has every intention of retrieving said ball - in same way as he would retreive a club placed to one side. If the ball no longer has the status as a provisional ball, then I'm struggling not to regard the ball as the players equipment. (According to decision 18/7, the ball no longer fits the exception from being equipment - because it's been lifted and not put back in play). I don't really see why this ball would be regarded any differently to, say, a load of balls that had accidentally spilled out of a players bag. Would they be regarded as abandoned?

In my mind thats why it is is still regarded as a provisional ball even though the original has been found, and indeed played.

As soon as the original ball is found the provisional ceases to be in play.
 

duncan mackie

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Well if its not in play its not his equipment he has hit.

I think you are missing backwoodsman's point completely.

As you say, once the original ball has been found the provisional is no longer a ball in play. Had the player hit that the Rules are clear that it's also not his equipment.

However, once the ball has been lifted it regains its status as his equipment.

Which leave the question as to whether the situation of the other player picking it up and throwing it to one side results in the ball regaining status as his equipment, or being considered abandoned.

This is further confused by the player having requested to FC to pick it up (stated) and whether the player was aware that the FC had thrown it to one side.

I don't agree with the statement that the ball can't be considered abandoned - it is nothing like a club; somewhere higher up the value chain than a tee peg but that's all. It's relatively common practice to use a pickup as a provisional so that if you find your original but put the provisional elsewhere you can just leave it (well I do it all the time....).

So it's status regarding ball in play is clear - it isn't.

By the natural interpretation of the wording of the various rules the ball returned to the status of equipment when the player requested his FC to lift it.

Whether that is still the case when the FC throws it to one side or not is uncertain - if a player throws away a ball it surely ceases to be his equipment?

Whilst I would seek a specific ruling from the R&A were it to happen at our club I now suspect that they would rule that if it was the players intention to recover the ball then it must be considered his equipment and a penalty applied (here).

(Backwoodsman will no doubt confirm, or deny, that this is indeed the question he's asking :thup:
 

Jacko_G

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I think you are missing backwoodsman's point completely.

As you say, once the original ball has been found the provisional is no longer a ball in play. Had the player hit that the Rules are clear that it's also not his equipment.

However, once the ball has been lifted it regains its status as his equipment.

Which leave the question as to whether the situation of the other player picking it up and throwing it to one side results in the ball regaining status as his equipment, or being considered abandoned.

This is further confused by the player having requested to FC to pick it up (stated) and whether the player was aware that the FC had thrown it to one side.

I don't agree with the statement that the ball can't be considered abandoned - it is nothing like a club; somewhere higher up the value chain than a tee peg but that's all. It's relatively common practice to use a pickup as a provisional so that if you find your original but put the provisional elsewhere you can just leave it (well I do it all the time....).

So it's status regarding ball in play is clear - it isn't.

By the natural interpretation of the wording of the various rules the ball returned to the status of equipment when the player requested his FC to lift it.

Whether that is still the case when the FC throws it to one side or not is uncertain - if a player throws away a ball it surely ceases to be his equipment?

Whilst I would seek a specific ruling from the R&A were it to happen at our club I now suspect that they would rule that if it was the players intention to recover the ball then it must be considered his equipment and a penalty applied (here).

(Backwoodsman will no doubt confirm, or deny, that this is indeed the question he's asking :thup:

If you say to your playing partner pick it up I've found my original that does not infer you want him/her to throw it to the side. The ball is no longer in play for that hole. If they inadvertently throw the ball away how can it be classed as your equipment that you have hit when the ball was not in the original position.

Still can't see a penalty being upheld here.
 
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