Can lessons be a waste of time?

Swango1980

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I can't disagree with anything you have written. My problem is with the notion that body movement is king. I personally prefer the concept of " think about where you are putting the club and the body will do its thing. When I play tennis I never think about a single thing the body is doing. I just let it respond to what I'm doing with my hands. Do you think about anything other than your hand when you are throwing a ball?
This zen stuff (to me) looks like it's the tail trying to wag the dog

Like a I said before, this is from zero experience with zen because I haven't had a lesson from him. I wouldn't either at that price. Being as socket rocket like his concept so much I would very much like to hear from him if he ever has a zen lesson.
I don't think about my hand at all when throwing a ball. I guess I am more focused on where I want the ball to go, and let my body do what it naturally does.

I believe Jack Nicklaus said when kids are learning the game, they should first learn to hit it as far as they possibly can, and once they have that flowing movements they can slowly refine it to get things going in right direction.

I am sure both aspects are needed. Flowing body movement for power and consistency, and suitable body positions for accuracy. The former might be most neglected
 

SocketRocket

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Sep 12, 2011
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I can't disagree with anything you have written. My problem is with the notion that body movement is king. I personally prefer the concept of " think about where you are putting the club and the body will do its thing. When I play tennis I never think about a single thing the body is doing. I just let it respond to what I'm doing with my hands. Do you think about anything other than your hand when you are throwing a ball?
This zen stuff (to me) looks like it's the tail trying to wag the dog

Like a I said before, this is from zero experience with zen because I haven't had a lesson from him. I wouldn't either at that price. Being as socket rocket like his concept so much I would very much like to hear from him if he ever has a zen lesson.
No, I've not had a lesson with them but that doesn't mean I don't understand what they're talking about. Are you really suggesting I can't understand the concept without having a lesson, I can see how good Rory McIlroy's swing is but I don't need a personal demonstration from him to come to that conclusion. The concept of concentrating on the task of creating good impact conditions by allowing the body to move naturally is not new to me, I first learned this concept many years ago from Joe Hagen's '3 Skills' method of golf tuition, I found it a breath of fresh air that blew away the traditional Golf Teaching methods. It really improved my golf, I was already a fair golfer but this moved me on to a new level.

If you don't like it then that's ok but please don't suggest it's not good because it's expensive, many good coaches are expensive as that the way business tends to work, if the products good then many people will pay for it.
 

hovis

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Aug 13, 2010
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No, I've not had a lesson with them but that doesn't mean I don't understand what they're talking about. Are you really suggesting I can't understand the concept without having a lesson, I can see how good Rory McIlroy's swing is but I don't need a personal demonstration from him to come to that conclusion. The concept of concentrating on the task of creating good impact conditions by allowing the body to move naturally is not new to me, I first learned this concept many years ago from Joe Hagen's '3 Skills' method of golf tuition, I found it a breath of fresh air that blew away the traditional Golf Teaching methods. It really improved my golf, I was already a fair golfer but this moved me on to a new level.

If you don't like it then that's ok but please don't suggest it's not good because it's expensive, many good coaches are expensive as that the way business tends to work, if the products good then many people will pay for it.
If you find it a breath of fresh air then why don't you use him and get to an even higher level?
 

SocketRocket

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If you find it a breath of fresh air then why don't you use him and get to an even higher level?
I said Joe Hagen was a breath of fresh air and that was 12 years back and I've incorporated these methods for a long time now. I'm very happy with my current level and at my age I have no real pretentions of getting to a higher level.
 
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I said Joe Hagen was a breath of fresh air and that was 12 years back and I've incorporated these methods for a long time now. I'm very happy with my current level and at my age I have no real pretentions of getting to a higher level.
I absolutely get it.

In fact I am being coached in a not dissimilar fashion…following the instinctive golf approach advocated by Kendal McWade. I’m not yet doing it very well but it is certainly helping me to move away from what I had been doing for over 35yrs. It’s important that I don’t get stuck over the ball at address as my head then tries to make my body swing the club the way my head thinks I should…problem is…what my head thinks is right is actually wrong.

Where I currently have most success with the approach is off the tee - with ‘woods‘ especially. I can’t explain what happens or how I do it but, looking down the line, I create a picture in my mind of the shape of shot I want to play…I walk up to the ball; place the club head behind the ball; take a stance and almost immediately and without pausing I simply swing the club and hit the ball. And most of the time I hit the ball with a free flowing swing…not always a great shot, but most of the time perfectly acceptable.

Importantly I have absolutely NO swing thoughts, and I know nothing about planes, positions, angles, transitions…nothing whatsoever, I let my body find where in space my swing needs to go to hit the short I have envisaged. @dufferman and @Midnight both witnessed me actually doing this at Hayling H4H (first time I’ve taken the approach onto a course for 18holes)…goodness knows what they thought of it, probably thought it was rubbish (some of the shots most certainly were).

But as unconventional and non-trad a golf coaching method as it might be, it’s starting to work for me, and I will work on it over winter. Maybe I’ll ask my coach to video me doing it.
 
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Midnight

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Apr 9, 2008
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2,573
I absolutely get it.

In fact I am being coached in a not dissimilar fashion…following the instinctive golf approach advocated by Kendal McWade. I’m not yet doing it very well but it is certainly helping me to move away from what I had been doing for over 35yrs. It’s important that I don’t get stuck over the ball at address as my head then tries to make my body swing the club the way my head thinks I should…problem is…what my head thinks is right is actually wrong.

Where I currently have most success with the approach is off the tee - with ‘woods‘ especially. I can’t explain what happens or how I do it but, looking down the line, I create a picture in my mind of the shape of shot I want to play…I walk up to the ball; place the club head behind the ball; take a stance and almost immediately and without pausing I simply swing the club and hit the ball. And most of the time I hit the ball with a free flowing swing…not always a great shot, but most of the time perfectly acceptable.

Importantly I have absolutely NO swing thoughts, and I know nothing about planes, positions, angles, transitions…nothing whatsoever, I let my body find where in space my swing needs to go to hit the short I have envisaged. @dufferman and @Midnight both witnessed me actually doing this at Hayling H4H (first time I’ve taken the approach onto a course for 18holes)…goodness knows what they thought of it, probably thought it was rubbish (some of the shots most certainly were).

But as unconventional and non-trad a golf coaching method as it might be, it’s starting to work for me, and I will work on it over winter. Maybe I’ll ask my coach to video me doing it.
I actually thought you struck the ball well mate, the times when you weren't as good was when you had thoughts in your head, as I remember you came off the tee saying got to keep my head clear. ??????
 
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