Calling "I'm out of it" and then finding the ball

[dougajmcdonald]

I played a pairs match today and had a situation where my drive was more or less lost. We looked for a couple of minutes but couldn't find it.

Having a 3 ball behind us, I told the others to play on to keep things moving and counted myself out of it.

Whilst the others were playing I walked on 20-30 yards and found my ball.

I played it, but between the four of us we then decided on the next tee that because I'd said "I'm out of this one" that my ball / me wasn't in play even after finding it.

Whilst I think this is correct, I have nagging doubts about whether we did the right thing. Does anyone know of any rules in this area?

 

[Fish]

I'll often say to the rest of my group to carry on to keep things moving but as long as I find my ball within 5 minutes, I'm still in the mix.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I played a pairs match today and had a situation where my drive was more or less lost. We looked for a couple of minutes but couldn't find it.

Having a 3 ball behind us, I told the others to play on to keep things moving and counted myself out of it.

Whilst the others were playing I walked on 20-30 yards and found my ball.

I played it, but between the four of us we then decided on the next tee that because I'd said "I'm out of this one" that my ball / me wasn't in play even after finding it.

Whilst I think this is correct, I have nagging doubts about whether we did the right thing. Does anyone know of any rules in this area?

If you find your ball within the stipulated 5 minutes then that ball is still live and you're still in the hole

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

By saying that 'you are out of it' I guess you were effectively saying 'my balls lost'. But you can't declare your ball lost - so as above if within 5mins then carry on.

 

[Crow]

If it was a match, while the ball wasn't actually lost, I suspect that as you said you were out of it you had effectively "picked up" and so could not continue.
Though I wait to be corrected on this.

The wise thing to do is as Fish suggests and tell the others to play on while you continue searching.

 

[atticusfinch]

It depends on whether "i'm out of it" is a concession of the hole.

[h=2]2-4/13[/h] [h=4]Implied Concession of Hole Withdrawn[/h]Q.A, unable to find his ball after a two-minute search, suggests to B, his opponent, that they move on to the next hole. A's ball is then found. A withdraws his suggestion to move on to the next hole and play is resumed. Before A plays his ball, B plays a stroke with a wrong ball. What is the ruling?

A.A's suggestion amounted to a concession of the hole and B won the hole. Concession of a hole may not be withdrawn (Rule 2-4). B's actions after A's concession could not deprive him of a hole already won.

 

[dougajmcdonald]

I definitely did say to carry on, but I also basically said "don't worry looking for it, I'm out of this hole" I just wonder if I can technically do that. As some have said, if I can't declare myself lost and did find it within 5 mins, I guess should I have been able to contribute to the hole?

 

[dougajmcdonald]

It depends on whether "i'm out of it" is a concession of the hole.

2-4/13

Implied Concession of Hole Withdrawn

Q.A, unable to find his ball after a two-minute search, suggests to B, his opponent, that they move on to the next hole. A's ball is then found. A withdraws his suggestion to move on to the next hole and play is resumed. Before A plays his ball, B plays a stroke with a wrong ball. What is the ruling?

A.A's suggestion amounted to a concession of the hole and B won the hole. Concession of a hole may not be withdrawn (Rule 2-4). B's actions after A's concession could not deprive him of a hole already won.

Interesting, I guess I basically conceded myself. But because my teammate was still in it, our team was still in the hole, so collectively as a team we did not concede. Does anyone know if concession can apply to one player in a pairs match?

 

[rulefan]

It depends on whether "i'm out of it" is a concession of the hole.

2-4/13

Implied Concession of Hole Withdrawn

Q.A, unable to find his ball after a two-minute search, suggests to B, his opponent, that they move on to the next hole. A's ball is then found. A withdraws his suggestion to move on to the next hole and play is resumed. Before A plays his ball, B plays a stroke with a wrong ball. What is the ruling?

A.A's suggestion amounted to a concession of the hole and B won the hole. Concession of a hole may not be withdrawn (Rule 2-4). B's actions after A's concession could not deprive him of a hole already won.

I don't believe the decision is appropriate. This was a pairs match. His partner is still 'in it'

 

[atticusfinch]

I meant the kind of concession that that removes a partner from the hole. I should have made that clear.

 

[chrisd]

I had a similar situation in a 4bbb final and the referee, rightly in my opinion, declared that his ball was found inside the 5 minutes and just saying to not worry about looking any more didn't put him out of the hole

 

[HawkeyeMS]

If it was a match, while the ball wasn't actually lost, I suspect that as you said you were out of it you had effectively "picked up" and so could not continue.
Though I wait to be corrected on this.

The wise thing to do is as Fish suggests and tell the others to play on while you continue searching.

You can't "effectively" pick up, you either lose your ball or you pick it up. If the ball is found in play within 5 minutes then it is in play and the player is still in the hole. He can of course then pick it up thus taking himself out of the hole but that would be a bit silly.

 

[duncan mackie]

I had a similar situation in a 4bbb final and the referee, rightly in my opinion, declared that his ball was found inside the 5 minutes and just saying to not worry about looking any more didn't put him out of the hole

A case of having to be there to consider the relevance.

If a player had made the statement attributable to the original post and one of the opponents had played what do you do? Has he played out of turn, has he been give wrong information by the other player? IMO the ruling makes it clear that the crux of the issue revolves around whether the player has conceded (in relation to his involvement in the hole). If he's simply suggesting others walk on and he will continue looking himself then he hasn't - and the next opponent to play will no doubt check what's happening before playing his shot, or both will continue to look because they wish to establish the state of play before playing! There's a sort of parallel to a player whose turn it is to play after putting a ball ooh stating he is conceding, then when both of you put your balls in the water, and his partner follows, suddenly decides he's going to go back to the tee!

If the wording was simply along the lines that you were happy to look for a minute yourself just in case, and there was no implication of a concession, then you haven't conceded and if you find it you can continue - this would appear to be the interpretation in your case Chris.

As to fish's contribution, this seems clearly written in the language of a stroke play situation which caries no possible issues of concession, playing out of turn or misleading opponents as to the state of strokes played on a hole.

 

[backwoodsman]

Is there not something fundamental here?

You can concede a match, a hole, or your opponent's next shot. Saying "I'm out of it" or even anything substantially more definite such as "We'll never find it, I'm not looking, the rest of you play on" doesn't fulfil any of the three concession possibilities. Not in a 4bbb match anyway - it probably would count as concession of the hole in a singles. You can't concede anything in relation to your own ball - there is nothing you can concede. Surely, unless you say something that indicates or implies that your side is conceding the hole - then the hole is not complete, and surely your ball is in play until such time as by definition, it is lost? (But Duncan's points accepted about possible difficulties about out of turn, wrong info etc)

 

[chrisd]

A case of having to be there to consider the relevance.

If a player had made the statement attributable to the original post and one of the opponents had played what do you do? Has he played out of turn, has he been give wrong information by the other player? IMO the ruling makes it clear that the crux of the issue revolves around whether the player has conceded (in relation to his involvement in the hole). If he's simply suggesting others walk on and he will continue looking himself then he hasn't - and the next opponent to play will no doubt check what's happening before playing his shot, or both will continue to look because they wish to establish the state of play before playing! There's a sort of parallel to a player whose turn it is to play after putting a ball ooh stating he is conceding, then when both of you put your balls in the water, and his partner follows, suddenly decides he's going to go back to the tee!

If the wording was simply along the lines that you were happy to look for a minute yourself just in case, and there was no implication of a concession, then you haven't conceded and if you find it you can continue - this would appear to be the interpretation in your case Chris.

As to fish's contribution, this seems clearly written in the language of a stroke play situation which caries no possible issues of concession, playing out of turn or misleading opponents as to the state of strokes played on a hole.

In our case the 3 of us and the referee had a look for his ball which was heading oob, as I was in a good place, and a cursory look, my playing partner said not to worry we'll move on. As he walked to the fairway we found his ball which had hit a tree and was further than their two balls. They said he'd declared the ball lost which I said wasn't possible and the referee agreed. They then played and then we both did


So, in essence you are correct Duncan

 

[Ross61]

Is this situation not unlike when playing a provisional? If you put your ball into the deep rough and then play a provisional which you put a foot from the hole. Even if you then do not look for your 1st ball you cannot declare it lost as your opponents can still look and if they find it you have to play the original.

 

[rulefan]

if they find it you have to play the original.

Providing 5 minutes has not elapsed or you haven't rushed ahead and played your provisional again.

 

[Ethan]

One player in a 4BBB team can't concede his individual contribution to the hole. The side either concedes or not.

I would therefore take this to be akin to saying 'it's up to you now, partner' to your team-mate rather than a concession, so when the OP finds his ball again, providing 5 minutes has not clasped since he started to look for it, he is back in play.

 

[Crow]

One player in a 4BBB team can't concede his individual contribution to the hole. The side either concedes or not.

I would therefore take this to be akin to saying 'it's up to you now, partner' to your team-mate rather than a concession, so when the OP finds his ball again, providing 5 minutes has not clasped since he started to look for it, he is back in play.

I've been trying to find such a rule without any luck, can you point me to it please?

 

[Ethan]

I've been trying to find such a rule without any luck, can you point me to it please?

Well, the question swings on whether a ball was validly lost, or a concession made.

I think we agree that the ball was not lost (< mins, can't declare etc), so it is all about concession. Since the d was ambiguous at best and the player had asked the others, including his partner, to play on, I think it is reasonable to assume he was not conceding on behalf of him and his opponent, and in 4BBB the side wins or loses, concedes or not, as one. One player can pick up at any point but that is not the same as a concession; your side is still in the hole.

I am not sure there is a rule as such, but the other rules kinda point you in that direction. May be a decision somewhere.