Building a Stance - Clarification

[ADB]

Our rough is brutal at the moment and unfortunately I am finding it far too often! When I do locate my ball it is often at the bottom of a clump of grass making a clean contact almost impossible, so it's a hack out. I just wanted to clarify the situation with backswings and your stance in tall grass, say knee height.

Can you tread down long grass where you will stand to swing or is this seen as building a stance? Secondly,on your backswing you inadvertantly pull out some grass or seed heads (if that makes sense) are you penalised?

Thanks SHW

 

[palindromicbob]

Our rough is brutal at the moment and unfortunately I am finding it far too often! When I do locate my ball it is often at the bottom of a clump of grass making a clean contact almost impossible, so it's a hack out. I just wanted to clarify the situation with backswings and your stance in tall grass, say knee height.

Can you tread down long grass where you will stand to swing or is this seen as building a stance? Secondly,on your backswing you inadvertantly pull out some grass or seed heads (if that makes sense) are you penalised?

Thanks SHW

How do you stand with out treading it down . You can tread down what is neccessary to take a fair stance but can't trample away happily to create a nice flat area if that make sense. You also can't justify tramping down grass around or near the ball.

If you continue you full swing there is no penatly. If you stop the swing and start again then yes there is a penalty. Same principle a removing leaves with a practice swing near trees.

 

[duncan mackie]

the whole idea of 'treading down' is really the issue here. you should take your stance in a natural way which, to me, doesn't involve treading anything down but may involve grass under my feet! you are entitled to place your feet firmly so you might twist your feet a little, even to the extent of displacing grass to one side or another; but you would be in breach of 13-3 if, for example, you lifted a foot and swept an area of grass over to then put your foot on.

although building a stance is 13-3, 13-2/1 tells us - ".....in taking his stance for the selected stroke, the player should select the least intrusive course of action which results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing. He must accommodate the situation in which the ball is found and take a stance as normal as the circumstances permit."

as already advised, inadvertent removal of fixed elements during the backswing, or downswing, of a stroke that is completed TTG is not a penalty. otherwise, the improvement of lie of swingpath would be. the removal of a single small leaf or seed pod in an otherwise congested area is not going to constitute a breach of the rules though - to the question can often become 'how much needs to be removed before it is?

13-2/0.5 includes this advice "....merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play." basically if what get's moved/removed isn't going to make any difference to the shot it's not a breach.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I had a similar one recently so reading duncan's post carefully but still not sure.

Ball in crap amongst low lying but tough nasty brambles. I can address the ball easy enough but as soon as I start my backswing within inches the clubhead is against the tough brambles. If I tried a practice take away I would definately have got the club tangled in the bramble and if I kept going on the backswing I would have yanked some of the c**p out of the way clearing my backswing a bit.

I decided that I could either treat the brambles as if they were something solid and fixed that couldn't be moved away by a practice swing - say like a tree root - in which case I would not take a practice swing and take my chances hacking down on the ball, or otherwise try and take a swing (without a practice) and if club got tangled then try and keep going with my backswing and then try and hit the ball. I decided I almost certainly would get tangled and wouldn't be able to complete my backswing so would be in breach of clearing fixed stuff. But would the swing still count as a stroke? as I wouldn't have broken the plane of my address in a downswing (that I wouldn't have been able to do).

I had a hack down on the ball brushing, but not clearing away the brambles, and and managed to move it a bit.

Of course I could declare unplayable and hoped for the best from my drop - but that didn't look promising either.

I think my analysis is correct - anyway I'm sure I didn't break any rules doing what I did (as much as I would have liked to clear my backswing a bit - even six inches would have made a difference). Just don't put it here again I thought to myself.

 

[ADB]

the whole idea of 'treading down' is really the issue here. you should take your stance in a natural way which, to me, doesn't involve treading anything down but may involve grass under my feet! you are entitled to place your feet firmly so you might twist your feet a little, even to the extent of displacing grass to one side or another; but you would be in breach of 13-3 if, for example, you lifted a foot and swept an area of grass over to then put your foot on.

although building a stance is 13-3, 13-2/1 tells us - ".....in taking his stance for the selected stroke, the player should select the least intrusive course of action which results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing. He must accommodate the situation in which the ball is found and take a stance as normal as the circumstances permit."

as already advised, inadvertent removal of fixed elements during the backswing, or downswing, of a stroke that is completed TTG is not a penalty. otherwise, the improvement of lie of swingpath would be. the removal of a single small leaf or seed pod in an otherwise congested area is not going to constitute a breach of the rules though - to the question can often become 'how much needs to be removed before it is?

13-2/0.5 includes this advice "....merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play." basically if what get's moved/removed isn't going to make any difference to the shot it's not a breach.

Thanks Duncan, just wanted to clarify this point especially as I have seen this being done in very long 'tufty' grass - difficult to call though.

 

[Colin L]

.....I decided I almost certainly would get tangled and wouldn't be able to complete my backswing so would be in breach of clearing fixed stuff. But would the swing still count as a stroke? as I wouldn't have broken the plane of my address in a downswing (that I wouldn't have been able to do)......

.....I think my analysis is correct - anyway I'm sure I didn't break any rules doing what I did ....

Seems to me a good analysis. If your backswing was strong enough to clear away some of the brambles before your club got stuck it would have given you a potential advantage for your next attempt - as you say a breach of 13-2. Without a forward movement of the club there would have been no stroke to count, so just the 2 penalty strokes for the 13-2 breach.