Beyond reasonable doubt?

[sawtooth]

I hit a tee shot today on our 5th, it went well, down the middle but a ditch goes across the fairway around the distance my tee shot is landing.

However, I decided not to play a provisional because I thought my ball was flying over the ditch from the tee although I never actually saw it bounce - I assumed it was OK.

I got up to the ditch, my PP was in the ditch and but I couldnt see mine in there. I said that I though that it went over so I carried on walking to search ahead.

No sign of it anywhere, one PP said that he thought it went in the ditch. The other PP did not see it.

I decided not to take a drop (as if the ball went in the ditch) because although the PP thought that it went in , I already announced out loud that I thought it went over. And it could have, even though its fairway and light rough it was sodden so it may have plugged - although quite unlikely. So instead of dropping a ball (which I dont think I was entitled to do) or going back to the tee I decided to scratch the hole.

So although my PP's were happy for me to take a drop (and I was also coming around to the idea that it must have gone in), I felt uncomfortable about doing so.

Right decision I think or was I being overly cautious about a rule breach?

 

[Foxholer]

Knowing the hole, I believe that decision was fine - if it had flown/bounced over the ditch, it would be sitting quite visible on the Fairway - so 'not known, but virtual certainty' to me. However if it had been headed toward the right hand rough (and probably left too, but 'no experience'), there is no way 'virtual certainty' could be applied, as finding a ball in that lot is never easy - even though it's not really deep!

 

[MadAdey]

Is the ditch full of water or just a soggy muddy mess? If you smacked one down the middle of a fairway that has a ditch running across and your ball is not in the fairway, I would say that it is almost certain to be in the ditch. Ok, if the ditch is at 200 and you normally hit the ball 250 yards, then I would be fairly certain that it is not in the ditch.

The wonderful rules of golf, at what point do you use them to your advantage without it looking like you are trying to take the P@@@

 

[sawtooth]

We kind of all agreed afterwards but i previously stated that I thought the ball flew the ditch. I think its tantamount to cheating if I then say OK I will take a drop. Isn't it?

 

[Imurg]

If you've hit one down the middle, and you're all happy it has gone down the middle, and there's a ditch crossing the fairway then your ball is either on the fairway or in the ditch.....isn't it?
If there was rough or something else to get lost in then there might be some doubt but with fairway either side of the ditch it has to one or the other.
I'd let you have a drop Mate!! You're still playing 3 though!!

 

[sawtooth]

The trouble is, the fairway was so wet and there is light rough past the ditch to the left. Ball could of got buried but unlikely, but it could, there was that possibility.

The dilemma was over to accept their offer of a drop after I said that I thought the ball went over the ditch not into it. Hardly , virtually certain as Foxholer put it.

It would have looked like I changed my mind to get the drop in other words.

 

[rulefan]

there was that possibility.

Not virtually certain then.

 

[MadAdey]

The trouble is, the fairway was so wet and there is light rough past the ditch to the left. Ball could of got buried but unlikely, but it could, there was that possibility.

The dilemma was over to accept their offer of a drop after I said that I thought the ball went over the ditch not into it. Hardly , virtually certain as Foxholer put it.

It would have looked like I changed my mind to get the drop in other words.

I am guessing that the hole in question is a blind tee shot, a bit like the 1st at Kenilworth, if you've played it. When ever I am in doubt as what to do on the golf course regarding rules decisions then I always run a few questions through my head to see if I can make it any clearer. In this situation I would have been looking at it like this:

Did I hit it down the middle of the fairway, so I am positive it is not in the rough?
Is it possible that my normal drive could carry into the ditch or role into it?
It is obvious that the ball is not in the fairway?

If you have answered yes to all of those questions then irrespective of what you first thought, IMO the ball is virtually certain to be in the ditch. If I was playing someone and they wanted a drop in this situation I would not argue it one little bit, even if we were going down the 18th and I'm a hole down. I would not for one minute think that you are trying to bend the rules to your advantage, or taking the P@@@.

My attitude towards the rules is this....... Use them, don't abuse them :thup:

 

[rulefan]

Only one question is needed. Is there any possibility that the ball could be anywhere else?

 

[ManinBlack]

If you've hit one down the middle, and you're all happy it has gone down the middle, and there's a ditch crossing the fairway then your ball is either on the fairway or in the ditch.....isn't it?
If there was rough or something else to get lost in then there might be some doubt but with fairway either side of the ditch it has to one or the other.
I'd let you have a drop Mate!! You're still playing 3 though!!

Not necessarily. I once hit a drive which bisected a fairway where you just can't see the ball when it lands. The fairway is just about completely flat. When we got down the fairway there was no sign of the ball, we never found it. There was nobody about who could have picked it up & we concluded that it must have taken a horrendous bounce into either the left or right hand rough. Under the rules definition could we have said the ball was " virtually certain" to be on the fairway? If we had we'd have been wrong. My understanding is that " virtually certain" is where you see the ball heading definitely into the hazard or see it enter the hazard, but can't subsequently find it. Saying "it can't be anywhere else" is not good enough.

 

[Imurg]

Not necessarily. I once hit a drive which bisected a fairway where you just can't see the ball when it lands. The fairway is just about completely flat. When we got down the fairway there was no sign of the ball, we never found it. There was nobody about who could have picked it up & we concluded that it must have taken a horrendous bounce into either the left or right hand rough. Under the rules definition could we have said the ball was " virtually certain" to be on the fairway? If we had we'd have been wrong. My understanding is that " virtually certain" is where you see the ball heading definitely into the hazard or see it enter the hazard, but can't subsequently find it. Saying "it can't be anywhere else" is not good enough.

OK, but in your scenario, if the ball is not in the fairway then its in the rough - no argument. So if you can't find it then its lost.
If there's no rough to lose the ball in, if there's a ditch across the fairway, if you've hit it down the middle in to the area of the ditch and the ball isn't on the fairway can you not be virtually certain that the ball is in the ditch...? If there are 2 choices as to where the ball is, if it ain't in one its gotta be in the other.
If its in rough then it may be lost, if its in a hazard proceed as per the rules.
In Sean's example there may be some rough that the ball may have entered so maybe the cannot virtual certainty and in yours the can't be as there is rough. But if there's no rough, just a ditch/pond/hole and fairway then why can't you be virtually certain that your ball is in one or the other? And if it ain't on the fairway then its in the hazard......

 

[delc]

Isn't this always a problem if you hit your ball in the general direction of a hidden water hazard, such as a ditch or low lying pond? If you don't find the ball either inside or outside the water hazard, is it lost or can you be virtually certain that it is lost in the water hazard? In the former case you have to go back and play another ball from your previous position under penalty of stroke and distance, but in the second case you can take a penalty drop behind or alongside (if it's a lateral water hazard) the water hazard. If you don't or can't see a splash as your ball enters the water, what constitutes virtual certainty? Even if you do see a splash, the ball could do a bouncing bomb act and come out of the far side of the water hazard! This issue comes up all the time at our course, because we have a number of hidden or partially hidden water hazards from the tee. Generally I give my fellow competitor or opponent the benefit of the doubt!

 

[Foxholer]

Not virtually certain then.

Notwithstanding the 'new evidence' of possible plugging/hiding in water etc that decreases the 'virtual certainty', I don't believe the fact that there is some (unlikely) possibility of the ball being elsewhere shouldn't automatically rule out 'virtual certainty'. If, after checking the expected places - fairway - and double/treble checking the remote possibilities like the fringe of the ditch, the ball 'cannot be anywhere else', I believe that constitutes 'virtual certainty'. I wouldn't be able to say that if the tee shot had been headed for the rough though.

I guess it's a case of whether 'can't be anywhere else' and 'virtually certain' are equal!

 

[rulefan]

If you search 'somewhere else' then you must have some doubt about where it is. You wouldn't search in the 'somewhere else' area if you don't believe it is possible to be there. If it is possible that a ball in that area may not be seen (2" rough say), then it is not virtually certain to be elsewhere.

But see this for the RB's view.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#d26-1-1

 

[Colin L]

I guess it's a case of whether 'can't be anywhere else' and 'virtually certain' are equal!

I don't have any difficulty in equating can't be anywhere else with virtually certain Rulefan made the comment not virtually certain then in the context of the OP saying there was a possibility the ball could be elsewhere.

 

[Colin L]

Generally I give my fellow competitor or opponent the benefit of the doubt!

Ah Del, you are all heart. But I'm not sure you should give any such benefit. If there is doubt to give the benefit of, there is no virtual certainty.

This couldn't be you colluding with a fellow competitor to exclude the operation of a Rule of Golf could it?

 

[sawtooth]

I think in my case at the end after a good look we were all reasonably confident that it went in the ditch, there is some rough but unless the ball plugged and disappeared underground the ball would easily be found.

My OP was merely wanting a sanity check on my decision not to take the drop after first stating that I was sure it went over, from the tee, to later agreeing that I was virtually certain that it went in the ditch ?! The 2 statements contradict each other (and feared a rule breach) so I refused the drop and the possibility of hitting the green in 3 and walking off with 5 for 2.

Instead I picked up for a blob.

 

[delc]

Ah Del, you are all heart. But I'm not sure you should give any such benefit. If there is doubt to give the benefit of, there is no virtual certainty.

This couldn't be you colluding with a fellow competitor to exclude the operation of a Rule of Golf could it?

Certainly not! If you see a ball heading towards a hidden water hazard and can't find it in the immediate surrounding area when you get there, isn't it reasonable to assume that it is virtually certain to be lost in the water hazard?

 

[bladeplayer]

Certainly not! If you see a ball heading towards a hidden water hazard and can't find it in the immediate surrounding area when you get there, isn't it reasonable to assume that it is virtually certain to be lost in the water hazard?

Just curious , Is the fact you looked in the immediate surrounding are not proof there is doubt it may be in the hazzard tho ?

Happens alot on our 5th in the summer with downhill run into a river ,

 

[delc]

Just curious , Is the fact you looked in the immediate surrounding are not proof there is doubt it may be in the hazzard tho ?

Happens alot on our 5th in the summer with downhill run into a river ,

Well searching in the immediate surrounding area and not finding the ball virtually eliminates one other possibility! :mmm: