Ball moves after being marked?

[delc]

This morning my approach shot ended up about 15 feet past the flag on a downslope. It was also rather windy, blowing back towards the hole. Just after I marked the ball, but before I had a chance to pick it up, a gust of wind caused the ball to move down the slope about 6" closer to the hole. I did not touch the ball or do anything to cause it to move.

Questions:
1) Does the original marked position stand, or should I remark the ball in its new position?

2) Any penalties?

 

[chellie]

I would have thought you played it from where you'd marked it with no penalties.

 

[Foxholer]

What do you think? Edit. And why?

Are you telling us that you carry a measuring tape in your bag (and 'can remember seeing a sign' that the RA& states never existed) yet don't carry a set of Rules with you?!

 

[delc]

What do you think? Edit. And why?

Are you telling us that you carry a measuring tape in your bag (and 'can remember seeing a sign' that the RA& states never existed) yet don't carry a set of Rules with you?!

Any chance of a proper reply from a real rules expert?

 

[Foxholer]

Any chance of a proper reply from a real rules expert?

When have I ever been wrong (as opposed to 'misled') on the dozens of rules queries you have raised?

AND: When I have been wrong (elsewhere), I at least admit it!

 

[woody69]

Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position – see Decision 18-1/12.

EDIT: Just realised this rule relates to the replacing of the ball.

I would suggest the marking of the ball is at the time the marker is put down, so in your scenario it should just be picked up and replaced on the marked spot (i.e. it is no different to you having marked the ball, gone to pick it up and dropped it). It moved in the act of marking, so no penalty.

If the ball had moved after you put it back and it moved, you then play from the new spot and not the originally marked spot.

 

[delc]

Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position – see Decision 18-1/12.

EDIT: Just realised this rule relates to the replacing of the ball.

I would suggest the marking of the ball is at the time the marker is put down, so in your scenario it should just be picked up and replaced on the marked spot (i.e. it is no different to you having marked the ball, gone to pick it up and dropped it). It moved in the act of marking, so no penalty.

If the ball had moved after you put it back and it moved, you then play from the new spot and not the originally marked spot.

The questions have stumped our club rules expert! There is a decision about the ball moving after being replaced, but not before. We wondered if the ball was still in play because it hadn't yet been lifted? In which case you would have to remark the ball in its new position.

 

[duncan mackie]

Any chance of a proper reply from a real rules expert?

not really - you always ignore such replies so it's a usually a complete waste of time making them..........

but for others that might read this thread

1. wind is not an outside agency
2. that the ball's position was marked is irrelevant
3. the act of marking/lifting is an exception to penalty for you causing the ball to move (but is irrelevant here).
4. you haven't addressed it so there's not even an issue about what did cause it to move - other than whether it was an outside agency (which you have confirmed it wasn't)

so you play the ball from it's new position and there's no penalty involved for breaching any rule unless you replaced the ball at the marker (?) - this is the default position unless the rules tell you otherwise!!!

 

[Foxholer]

not really - you always ignore such replies so it's a usually a complete waste of time making them..........

:rofl:

It's another case of reading the Rules (and Definitions) as they are written - not as they might be 'interpreted'!

IE: lifted = lifted; not 'marked to be lifted'.

 

[woody69]

The questions have stumped our club rules expert! There is a decision about the ball moving after being replaced, but not before. We wondered if the ball was still in play because it hadn't yet been lifted? In which case you would have to remark the ball in its new position.

I guess the question is at what point a ball is considered marked, is it before or after it is lifted? I would assume it is after.

 

[duncan mackie]

I guess the question is at what point a ball is considered marked, is it before or after it is lifted?

it is a matter of fact as to whether the position of a ball is marked but the point at which it's marked hasn't any relevance other than whether it's before an action requiring that the ball be marked, or whether the player is actively in the process of marking/lifting.

if it's not marked before it's lifted under a rule that requires it to be marked then you are going to get penalised!

the better question is 'when is a ball lifted?' - and the answer is not 'when it's marked'.

 

[User62651]

Doesn't seem complicated.

If you got the marker in place before the ball started moving I think you'd play from that marked spot. Rule 20 says a ball can move without penalty if accidentally moved whilst marking.

If you didn't get the marker in place before the ball started moving you'd let the ball roll to its new location and then mark it.
If the moving ball hit your hand as you tried to get out of the way you'd be penalised 2 shots. If it's route was diverted by a thick rimmed marker like an old crown coin then so be it, I think that coin would be classed a loose impediment.

 

[doublebogey7]

Doesn't seem complicated.

If you got the marker in place before the ball started moving I think you'd play from that marked spot. Rule 20 says a ball can move without penalty if accidentally moved whilst marking.

If you didn't get the marker in place before the ball started moving you'd let the ball roll to its new location and then mark it.
If the moving ball hit your hand as you tried to get out of the way you'd be penalised 2 shots. If it's route was diverted by a thick rimmed marker like an old crown coin then so be it, I think that coin would be classed a loose impediment.

Have you not read the rest of the thread?

 

[Foxholer]

Doesn't seem complicated.

If you got the marker in place before the ball started moving I think you'd play from that marked spot. Rule 20 says a ball can move without penalty if accidentally moved whilst marking.

Er....No!

It's the 'lifted' state that's important (as to whether a ball is still in play or not), not the 'marked' one!

 

[User62651]

Have you not read the rest of the thread?

Yes, am I not allowed to agree with you?

 

[User62651]

Er....No!

It's the 'lifted' state that's important (as to whether a ball is still in play or not), not the 'marked' one!

Ah fine in theory but if you found yourself in the OP's scenario would you be sure the act of marking, rather than a gust of wind as he claims, didn't set the ball off rolling? If so the ball can move in the act of marking without penalty.
Eg if you nudged the ball nearer the hole by accident while marking, as long as the marker is in the correct place where the ball was originally at rest that's ok. Happens all the time!

Got to add - imagine your playing partners reaction watching from a few yards away if you're hunched over the ball with a marker in hand right by the ball and they can't really see what you're doing as the ball starts rolling towards the hole and you go, "that was the wind, not me" - you'd be risking your reputation. I would get the marker down, pick up the moving ball and use the original ball position to replace it when it's your turn to putt.

 

[doublebogey7]

Yes, am I not allowed to agree with you?

I assume you mean disagree??

The OP clearly states that the wind coursed the ball to move and was not as a result of him marking the ball. We were not there and are therefore not in a position to disagree.

 

[User62651]

I assume you mean disagree??

The OP clearly states that the wind coursed the ball to move and was not as a result of him marking the ball. We were not there and are therefore not in a position to disagree.

No, agree.
You said -

I would suggest the marking of the ball is at the time the marker is put down, so in your scenario it should just be picked up and replaced on the marked spot (i.e. it is no different to you having marked the ball, gone to pick it up and dropped it). It moved in the act of marking, so no penalty.

If the ball had moved after you put it back and it moved, you then play from the new spot and not the originally marked spot.


I said -
If you got the marker in place before the ball started moving I think you'd play from that marked spot. Rule 20 says a ball can move without penalty if accidentally moved whilst marking.

If you didn't get the marker in place before the ball started moving you'd let the ball roll to its new location and then mark it.
Is that not the same therefore agreeing?

 

[Foxholer]

Ah fine in theory but if you found yourself in the OP's scenario would you be sure the act of marking, rather than a gust of wind as he claims, didn't set the ball off rolling? If so the ball can move in the act of marking without penalty.
Eg if you nudged the ball nearer the hole by accident while marking, as long as the marker is in the correct place where the ball was originally at rest that's ok. Happens all the time!

Got to add - imagine your playing partners reaction watching from a few yards away if you're hunched over the ball with a marker in hand right by the ball and they can't really see what you're doing as the ball starts rolling towards the hole and you go, "that was the wind, not me" - you'd be risking your reputation. I would get the marker down, pick up the moving ball and use the original ball position to replace it when it's your turn to putt.

That's also beside the point!

In spite of the amount of drivel DelC posts, if he stated that he didn't influence the movement of the ball, then I'd believe him - at least the first time it happened ! To do otherwise, perhaps after a query or 2, would be to call him a blatant cheat, which, even without ever meeting him, I'm absolutely certain he isn't!

 

[doublebogey7]

No, agree.
You said -

I would suggest the marking of the ball is at the time the marker is put down, so in your scenario it should just be picked up and replaced on the marked spot (i.e. it is no different to you having marked the ball, gone to pick it up and dropped it). It moved in the act of marking, so no penalty.

If the ball had moved after you put it back and it moved, you then play from the new spot and not the originally marked spot.


I said -
If you got the marker in place before the ball started moving I think you'd play from that marked spot. Rule 20 says a ball can move without penalty if accidentally moved whilst marking.

If you didn't get the marker in place before the ball started moving you'd let the ball roll to its new location and then mark it.
Is that not the same therefore agreeing?

I Think you have got the wrong guy