Ball lost?

chrisd

chrisd

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I was asked a question today which I thought was answered here a little while back but I think came up during a different question. I can't find the answer so apologise if it's a repeat

If a ball is played and all the players in the group see it land (say on the fairway) and when they get to where it landed they can't find it, can the virtual certainty rule be used for a free drop?

Thanks guys
 
It depends. As far as I understand it "virtual certainty" applies as follows:

1. Rule 18-1 Ball moved by outside agency

2. Rule 24-3 Ball lost in obstruction

3. Rule 25-1 Abnormal ground conditions

4. Rule 26-1 Water hazard

only to a ball entering a water hazard

In your case you'd have to be "virtually certain" that the ball had been moved by an outside agency.
 
It's a very difficult one to be sure about and to my mind you'd need a good explanation of why the ball is no longer there.

I assume that the suggestion is that an outside agency (a dog or naughty boy for instance) moved the ball? But if you all saw it land then surely you'd all have seen it moved by said outside agency so I'd say not in this instance, it could have hit a stone and deflected into the rough after landing.
At this time of year it might even be plugged and if you couldn't find it then that would constitute a lost ball.

If the landing area was out of sight then you're on an even stickier wicket.
 
What about today's conditions of muddy wet conditions where it's likely the ball has plugged?


Coo, my 11,000th post is a rules one!
 
How many times have you said when you haven't found your ball, " I can't believe you could lose a ball there?" And how many times have you found a ball lying in the open and said, "How could anyone lose a ball like that?" If everyone has experienced those as often as I have, they are very common occurrences.

As has been covered above, in Rules terms, you must have something positive to account for not finding ball that everyone saw landing in a particular area. Without any evidence of an OA moving the ball or being in the area, you have no case for anything other than a lost ball.
 
chrisd said:
What about today's conditions of muddy wet conditions where it's likely the ball has plugged?
Click to expand...

I had that on Saturday when I had to play a wedge from the side of a bank. It only went about 70 yards due to the angle of the bank but it was just right of centre fairway. Got down there and it was nowhere to be seen as it was in a dip and the ground was saturated. Had to go back and play the shot again under penalty.
 
Colin L said:
How many times have you said when you haven't found your ball, " I can't believe you could lose a ball there?" And how many times have you found a ball lying in the open and said, "How could anyone lose a ball like that?" If everyone has experienced those as often as I have, they are very common occurrences.

As has been covered above, in Rules terms, you must have something positive to account for not finding ball that everyone saw landing in a particular area. Without any evidence of an OA moving the ball or being in the area, you have no case for anything other than a lost ball.
Click to expand...

To be fair, that's the answer I gave but something read in earlier discussions played on my mind and I qualified my answer by saying I'd double check
 
chrisd said:
I was asked a question today which I thought was answered here a little while back but I think came up during a different question. I can't find the answer so apologise if it's a repeat

If a ball is played and all the players in the group see it land (say on the fairway) and when they get to where it landed they can't find it, can the virtual certainty rule be used for a free drop?

Thanks guys
Click to expand...

Virtual certain of what? Someone or something took it away, it is plugged? You need some very strong evidence of the former and to find the ball for the latter.

Lost ball, I'm afraid.
 
rulefan said:
Virtual certain of what? Someone or something took it away, it is plugged? You need some very strong evidence of the former and to find the ball for the latter.

Lost ball, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

But what if you hit the ball up the middle of the fairway and then on approaching fail to find it but do find that the area was soft under foot and meets the criteria of casual water. Likelihood is that the ball is plugged but can't be found. It is virtually certain the ball entered and is lost in this area.
 
Lost ball.
Ray Taylor hit a lovely drive straight down the middle of the 12th fairway at St Mellion one day.
That particular hole is renowned (or WAS) for being very wet during the winter months.
All four of us saw it go straight down the middle. All four of us spent what seemed like ages trying to find it.
Ray had to walk back to the tee and was very (very) annoyed. He was fuming.
Which made us laugh (his annoyance, not the fact that he had lost a ball).
He was livid!!
:D
 
palindromicbob said:
But what if you hit the ball up the middle of the fairway and then on approaching fail to find it but do find that the area was soft under foot and meets the criteria of casual water. Likelihood is that the ball is plugged but can't be found. It is virtually certain the ball entered and is lost in this area.
Click to expand...

Unless water can be seen when taking your stance, soft under foot does not meet the criteria.

However, where would you drop the ball?
 
palindromicbob said:
But what if you hit the ball up the middle of the fairway and then on approaching fail to find it but do find that the area was soft under foot and meets the criteria of casual water. Likelihood is that the ball is plugged but can't be found. It is virtually certain the ball entered and is lost in this area.
Click to expand...

If the two statements in bold are true then surely it is just a case of proceeding in accordance with Rule 25-1c
 
palindromicbob said:
But what if you hit the ball up the middle of the fairway and then on approaching fail to find it but do find that the area was soft under foot and meets the criteria of casual water. Likelihood is that the ball is plugged but can't be found. It is virtually certain the ball entered and is lost in this area.
Click to expand...

Likelihood is not the same as virtually certainty. Soft ground in the vicinity of where the ball landed is not evidence enough of virtual certainty that that is where the ball now lies, as you would still expect to find the ball in this situation. However if there is a few inches if lying water the ball was seen to splash in the water then that may be enough to warrant a free drop.
 
Airsporter1st said:
From the OP's description, 25-1c would appear to cover it.
Click to expand...

25-1c does not cover Palindromicbob's situation if he is simply describing a ball embedding in soft ground. See post #13 In order to establish that water was visible when taking your stance you would first have to find your ball.
 
I actually had the question asked when discussing rules in the clubhouse but was glad my interpretation was correct as only two days before I had hit one of my lifetime best drives down the middle of the first, only to lose it plugged somewhere!
 
Colin L said:
25-1c does not cover Palindromicbob's situation if he is simply describing a ball embedding in soft ground. See post #13 In order to establish that water was visible when taking your stance you would first have to find your ball.
Click to expand...

It was a deliberate curve ball to pull into the converstation but what I describe should be covered by 25-1c. I am not simply describing a ball embedding in soft ground (although that is what I was inferring as the reason for the ball being lost) and was quiet careful to make sure I mentioned 2 important things.

I stated that the area meets the definition of casual water and that it is virtually certain the ball is lost in that area.

The rest of the example is simply red herrings and has led to conjecture and the relevant info being ignored. Had either of the above 2 pieces of info been left out then, of course, rule 25-1c would fail to apply.

Just shows though that even when an example which states the info needed to have a rule apply that interpretation can still be different. ;)
 
Last edited:
palindromicbob said:
Just shows though that even when an example which states the info needed to have a rule apply that interpretation can still be different. ;)
Click to expand...

In this case all the information was not supplied.

The actual nature of the casual water in the area is crucial to the ruling.
 
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