Ball kicked fellow competitor

[Green Bay Hacker]

Played in invitation day at my mates club today. Format was 4BBB and on one hole 3 out of the 4 balls ended up in the light rough. We found my ball first and it was sitting up nicely and continued to look for the other two and they were found quickly. On his way to his ball a FC was headed straight over my ball with his trolley, I shouted but as he looked up he toe punted my ball about 10 feet.

He apologised and brought the ball back to me but instead of handing it over he proceeded to drop the ball in the approximate spot he had kicked it from. Now the drop was not the worst lie but it was not the best either. My question is, was it me or him who should have dropped the ball? He seemed to think that it was him as he had moved it from its original position and I had no say in the matter.

 

[guest100718]

if you knew the exact location I think you could have placed it. Either way you should be the one who drops/place.

 

[Foxholer]

It should have been replaced by you (the player), your Partner, or the person who moved it. (18.4 & 20.3a)

If the exact position is not known, then it must be dropped - by you the player - as near as possible to where it was believed to have been. (18.4 and 20.2a)

No Penalties involved if those requirements are folllowed.

 

[atticusfinch]

The rule (18-1) says the ball must be replaced. I does not say who must replace it. But rule 20-3 says it can be replaced by the player his partner or person who moved it.

When your FC dropped the ball to correct his error it made no difference. The ball had not been replaced. It was still in the process of being moved. Either he, you or your partner must take the dropped ball and place it appropriately.

 

[6inchcup]

The rule (18-1) says the ball must be replaced. I does not say who must replace it. But rule 20-3 says it can be replaced by the player his partner or person who moved it.

When your FC dropped the ball to correct his error it made no difference. The ball had not been replaced. It was still in the process of being moved. Either he, you or your partner must take the dropped ball and place it appropriately.

so as the rules had not been adhered to was or should he be D.Q'D,or the person who dropped the ball.

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

Thanks for the answers guys, it didn't seem right at the time.

Atticus, are you saying that as we knew the original position and I did not replace it correctly then I should have had a penalty and was therefore out of the hole for not correcting the error?

 

[atticusfinch]

??????

 

[atticusfinch]

Thanks for the answers guys, it didn't seem right at the time.

Atticus, are you saying that as we knew the original position and I did not replace it correctly then I should have had a penalty and was therefore out of the hole for not correcting the error?

See if rule 20-3a answers the question.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks for the answers guys, it didn't seem right at the time.

Atticus, are you saying that as we knew the original position and I did not replace it correctly then I should have had a penalty and was therefore out of the hole for not correcting the error?

I think he was saying that if the spot was determinable (which in my experience is not the case in such situations because if the person who kicked it knew exactly where and how the ball was lying he wouldn't have kicked it and if you were close enough to it you could have stopped him!) then the ball shouldn't have been dropped (20 -3a) therefore after the FC dropped the ball if you didn't pick it up and place it it would be a 2 shot penalty. If the spot wasn't determinable then it is correct to drop but the FC shouldn't have dropped it - you have to. In this instance you are subject to a 1 shot penalty if you didn't correct (20-2a applies).

With your reference to a fellow competitor I take it that he wasn't your partner in the BB comp.

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

I think he was saying that if the spot was determinable (which in my experience is not the case in such situations because if the person who kicked it knew exactly where and how the ball was lying he wouldn't have kicked it and if you were close enough to it you could have stopped him!) then the ball shouldn't have been dropped (20 -3a) therefore after the FC dropped the ball if you didn't pick it up and place it it would be a 2 shot penalty. If the spot wasn't determinable then it is correct to drop but the FC shouldn't have dropped it - you have to. In this instance you are subject to a 1 shot penalty if you didn't correct (20-2a applies).

With your reference to a fellow competitor I take it that he wasn't your partner in the BB comp.

Thanks for clearing it up. I was close enough to determine the spot, I had just turned round to take my club out of the bag and then saw the FC approaching my ball. He just wasn't looking at anything other than his ball.

As the mistake was not corrected and a penalty was not added I assume we would have been DQ'd for signing for a wrong score if it was my score that was used. Luckily we both scored the same and both had shots so we put his score down.

No it wasn't my partner who kicked it.

 

[palindromicbob]

so as the rules had not been adhered to was or should he be D.Q'D,or the person who dropped the ball.

Thanks for clearing it up. I was close enough to determine the spot, I had just turned round to take my club out of the bag and then saw the FC approaching my ball. He just wasn't looking at anything other than his ball.

As the mistake was not corrected and a penalty was not added I assume we would have been DQ'd for signing for a wrong score if it was my score that was used. Luckily we both scored the same and both had shots so we put his score down.

No it wasn't my partner who kicked it.

Yup, could have been a DQ had your score been used. As it stands all is fine though.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I think he was saying that if the spot was determinable (which in my experience is not the case in such situations because if the person who kicked it knew exactly where and how the ball was lying he wouldn't have kicked it and if you were close enough to it you could have stopped him!) then the ball shouldn't have been dropped (20 -3a) therefore after the FC dropped the ball if you didn't pick it up and place it it would be a 2 shot penalty. If the spot wasn't determinable then it is correct to drop but the FC shouldn't have dropped it - you have to. In this instance you are subject to a 1 shot penalty if you didn't correct (20-2a applies).

With your reference to a fellow competitor I take it that he wasn't your partner in the BB comp.

Duncan, can I just check the bit in bold. As I read 20-3a the person who moved the ball (in this case the FC) - can replace it. I assume the same holds if, in addition, 20-3c applies. Am I reading that wrongly?

 

[duncan mackie]

Duncan, can I just check the bit in bold. As I read 20-3a the person who moved the ball (in this case the FC) - can replace it. I assume the same holds if, in addition, 20-3c applies. Am I reading that wrongly?

apparently you are

under 20-3c the ball is never replaced, it's either dropped or placed (putting green).

20-2a tells us A ball to be dropped under the Rules must be dropped by the player himself

20-3a tells us A ball to be placed under the Rules must be placed by the player or his partner

 

[MashieNiblick]

Thanks Duncan , but I am still a bit unclear. This is what I am reading (my emphasis)

20-3 - Placing and Replacing

"A ball to be placed under the Rules must be placed by the player or his partner. A ball to be replaced under the Rules must be replaced by any one of the following: (i) the person who lifted or moved the ball, (ii) the player, or (iii) the player's partner."

But if the spot is not determinable it has to be dropped as per 20-3c. So my thinking is that in these circumstances the ball may be also be dropped under 20-3c by the person who moved the ball i.e. in the OP case by the FC.

Thanks again for any guidance.

 

[Colin L]

I'm really just recycling Duncan's words, but does this help?

20-2a tells us A ball to be dropped under the Rules must be dropped by the player himself and so at any time a Rule tells you to drop, you as the player must do it. 20-3 gives a wider scope when a ball is to be placed or replaced but is not applicable to Rule 20-3c because that Rule tells us we must drop the ball.

20-3c dictates that the ball must be dropped; 20-2a dictates that a ball must be dropped by the player; 20-3c doesn't come into into because it is about placing and replacing, not dropping.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks Duncan , but I am still a bit unclear. This is what I am reading (my emphasis)

20-3 - Placing and Replacing

"A ball to be placed under the Rules must be placed by the player or his partner. A ball to be replaced under the Rules must be replaced by any one of the following: (i) the person who lifted or moved the ball, (ii) the player, or (iii) the player's partner."

But if the spot is not determinable it has to be dropped as per 20-3c. So my thinking is that in these circumstances the ball may be also be dropped under 20-3c by the person who moved the ball i.e. in the OP case by the FC.

Thanks again for any guidance.

I am afraid I can't add anything to what I wrote above, so at the risk of being rude I will repeat myself (but use slightly different wordings!) -

1. a ball being dropped is not being replaced so anything relating to replacing a ball cannot be applicable
2. if a ball is being dropped then a rule that states "A ball to be dropped under the Rules must be dropped by the player himself" is going to apply unless a specific exception is written in to the situation.

 

[atticusfinch]

Why the difference? Its because dropping is intended to approximate the action of a ball at the end of a stroke as it rolls out. Only the player can make the stroke. It allows an uncertain outcome which either benefits or harms only the player just as a stroke would.

Replacing the ball has none of these variables and can be accomplished by anyone. It only has to be put on a precise spot that has already been determined.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Thank you both Colin and Duncan (No risk of being rude at all Duncan, just very helpful as always ).

Thanks also atticus for explaining rationale behind it.

All makes sense now.