Ball in Water Hazard Query

[Matty]

I know there have been lots of questions about balls in Water Hazards but this one is hopefully a little different.

18 hole competition yesterday at a 9 hole course so played each hole twice. The 9th (and 18th) is a longish par 3 with a narrow approach through trees to the green with 2 bunkers and a pond in front of the green too.

First time around I saw my ball hit reeds in the pond and this was confirmed by a fellow competitor. We looked for my ball around the pond but it was there so having seen it hit the reeds were certain it was in the pond.

Second time around the ball was heard to hit a tree short of the green, it was a solid sounding contact too. I put a provisional ball into play so as not to delay play and we looked for the first ball. When we couldn't find it a fellow competitor (different person that from the first time) said the ball must be in the water, yet no one saw the reeds move or a splash. Since I was not certain where the first ball was I proceeded with my provisional ball rather than taking a water hazard drop.

So, did I proceed correctly and within the spirit of the rules? Could I have taken a drop? (I hit my provisional onto the green to take a 5 so taking a drop probably would not have affected the score anyway!)

 

[HawkeyeMS]

It has to be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. With the 2nd ball, that can't be the case so the ball was lost and you were right to carry on with your provisional.

The first ball is less clear cut. Since you were looking outside the hazard, that means you thought there was a chance that your ball wasn't in it and I guess it would depend on the state of the area you were looking for the ball. For example, if it was long rough then it is possible that the ball was lost outside the hazard so the fact you were looking for it means that it wasn't K or VC?

 

[atticusfinch]

What do you mean "second time around?" Did you play a ball to replace the first one?

If you are virtually certain the ball is in a water hazard you may not play a provisional. When you drop or tee the "provisional" it becomes the ball in play. Only you can decide whether it was virtually certain in the WH as you experienced it.

Hard to tell from your post what happened when but it sounds like you played a second ball for the one in the hazard. That ball was the ball in play and you should proceed accordingly.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

What do you mean "second time around?" Did you play a ball to replace the first one?

If you are virtually certain the ball is in a water hazard you may not play a provisional. When you drop or tee the "provisional" it becomes the ball in play. Only you can decide whether it was virtually certain in the WH as you experienced it.

Hard to tell from your post what happened when but it sounds like you played a second ball for the one in the hazard. That ball was the ball in play and you should proceed accordingly.

9 hole course, played twice is how I read it.

 

[anotherdouble]

What do you mean "second time around?" Did you play a ball to replace the first one?

If you are virtually certain the ball is in a water hazard you may not play a provisional. When you drop or tee the "provisional" it becomes the ball in play. Only you can decide whether it was virtually certain in the WH as you experienced it.

Hard to tell from your post what happened when but it sounds like you played a second ball for the one in the hazard. That ball was the ball in play and you should proceed accordingly.

They played a 9 hole course twice. 1st 9 at a certain hole was one occurrence and then at the same certain hole on the 2nd time around the 2nd occurrence.

 

[Matty]

@HawkeyeMS - thanks for the confirmation for the 18th (play of 9th for second time). The 9th (first play of the 9th hole) I was looking on the fringe to the green to fairway length grass. I was of the mind there may be a very slim chance the ball had clipped the last reeds in the pond and carried through into that area. If the ball wasn't there then it can only be in the pond having hit reeds more to the middle of the pond.

@atticusfinch - it's a 9 holes course, so we played the 9th hole as the 9th and 18th. By second 'time around' I mean the playing of the 9th hold for the second time, or the 18th hole of the competition.

 

[Imurg]

Sounds like you did everything correctly....

 

[Colin L]

Sounds good to me too.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

@HawkeyeMS - thanks for the confirmation for the 18th (play of 9th for second time). The 9th (first play of the 9th hole) I was looking on the fringe to the green to fairway length grass. I was of the mind there may be a very slim chance the ball had clipped the last reeds in the pond and carried through into that area. If the ball wasn't there then it can only be in the pond having hit reeds more to the middle of the pond.

@atticusfinch - it's a 9 holes course, so we played the 9th hole as the 9th and 18th. By second 'time around' I mean the playing of the 9th hold for the second time, or the 18th hole of the competition.

In that case I'd say both situations were dealt with correctly

 

[Matty]

Great - thanks for that. Just a little doubt in my mind when my FC stated that the ball must be in the water the second time we played the hole despite no one actually seeing it enter the water hazard.

 

[duncan mackie]

Great - thanks for that. Just a little doubt in my mind when my FC stated that the ball must be in the water the second time we played the hole despite no one actually seeing it enter the water hazard.

Unless he actually saw the ball go into the hazard he is simply hazard ingredients a guess in a situation like this. Your approach was correct as has been commented.

The only time an opinion such as this would be useful, or relevant, would be if you all knew that the ball may have gone into a hazard that wasn't clearly in view from the previous shot (ie you couldn't have Knowledge at that point as you had on your first tee shot above) and that when you got up to the area there was nowhere else it could be (think small pond in the middle of a large fairway with no surrounding rough that wasn't in the hazard) - at this point you can aquire virtual certainty, and "must have gone in the hazard" from a FC gains relevance.

Generally, hitting a tree solidly without any visual as to where it went next is a slam dunk for lost unless found; there are simply too many variables available for any virtual certainty of anything.