Ball in hazard that I didn't know was a hazard

[HawkeyeMS]

I played a society event at South Buckinghamshire (Formerly Farnham Park) last week. The 8th hole is a Par 5 and I pushed my drive slightly and it ended bouncing about a foot into some long grass. From the tee, the area just looked like a copse of trees and grass so I hit a provisional (down the middle obviously) and set off to find the first one. When I got the the area I found that it was actually a lateral water hazard, defined by short red stakes that weren't visible from the tee as they were shorter than, and surrounded by, the grass. I found my ball, hacked it out and thought nothing of it until after the round.

Now, I was certain my ball was in the long grass but given I didn't know this was a hazard I hit a provisional. My belief on the tee was that my ball may be lost outside a hazard (on account of I had no idea the hazard was there), had I know it was a hazard, I wouldn't have hit the provisional.


I have a few questions which are all a little intertwined and the answer to one will probably answer them all indirectly so hopefully this makes sense...

Q1) Does not knowing about a hazard hold any weight when it come to the rules?
Q2) Once I had discovered the long grass was a hazard, what is the status of the provisional ball?
Q3) Having played the provisional, which I shouldn't have played, did it become the ball in play once I discovered the area my ball was in was a hazard?
Q4) By playing my original ball from within the hazard, did I play the wrong ball since I had already played one off of the tee?
Q5) Had I not found my original ball. Could I have played my "provisional" or does that not count as it was unwittingly played in error?

 

[Tommo21]

My understanding....................once you realised it was a hazard. You simply abandon (pick up) the provisional ball. You hit the prov ball because you thought it could be lost outside a hazard and that’s fine. If you are sure your ball, when getting there, is in the hazard, the prov ball is not an option. You must take up the options regarding the hazard.

 

[woody69]

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

I think from this and you not knowing it was a WH suggests you followed the right procedure.

 

[la_lucha]

I'm just reading this and it got me thinking. Say you hit a ball and it wasn't a great shot and it ends up in some long grass and you know roughly where it is. Is there anything stopping you from hitting another drive, calling it a provisional for the main reason of having a practice?

We all hit balls into the rough that we can't find so have to go back to the tee so I don't see why you couldn't play a provisional off every tee if you're not hitting the fairways?

 

[woody69]

I'm just reading this and it got me thinking. Say you hit a ball and it wasn't a great shot and it ends up in some long grass and you know roughly where it is. Is there anything stopping you from hitting another drive, calling it a provisional for the main reason of having a practice?

We all hit balls into the rough that we can't find so have to go back to the tee so I don't see why you couldn't play a provisional off every tee if you're not hitting the fairways?

All comes down to the interpretation of 27-2a/3 I think

27-2a/3 Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds
Q In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?
A No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play – See Decision 27-2a/2.

 

[la_lucha]

All comes down to the interpretation of 27-2a/3 I think

27-2a/3 Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds
Q In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?
A No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play – See Decision 27-2a/2.

If you hit it into the rough then there is always a reasonable possibility that it won't be found isn't there?

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

All comes down to the interpretation of 27-2a/3 I think

27-2a/3 Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds
Q In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?
A No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play – See Decision 27-2a/2.

I don't think that rule/decision answers la_lucha. Or at least it doesn't in my head...

 

[woody69]

If you hit it into the rough then there is always a reasonable possibility that it won't be found isn't there?

Yeah, exactly what I'm saying.

 

[atticusfinch]

Q1) Does not knowing about a hazard hold any weight when it come to the rules? In the context of this case, playing a provisionnal when it is not allowed has no consequence except that the provisional does not count and cannot be used.
Q2) Once I had discovered the long grass was a hazard, what is the status of the provisional ball? Abandoned. Original played as it lies or take relief under rule 26.
Q3) Having played the provisional, which I shouldn't have played, did it become the ball in play once I discovered the area my ball was in was a hazard? No.
Q4) By playing my original ball from within the hazard, did I play the wrong ball since I had already played one off of the tee? No. When the original is found the provisional is abandoned.
Q5) Had I not found my original ball. Could I have played my "provisional" or does that not count as it was unwittingly played in error? See dec 27-2a/2.5

 

[atticusfinch]

Rule of thumb. If the criteria for playing a provisional ball exist at the time it is declared and played, there is no penalty as long as belief in the criteria was reasonable at the time.

If it turns out the criteria was not there at the time, the provisional just ceases to exist and the original is treated appropriately. (Unless the provisional has been played as described in R. 27-2b.)

 

[mattdeeks]

Not related to the question but I played there last week in a 4 club challenge and had a shocker, 18 points! However the new clubhouse is great.

 

[duncan mackie]

Q1)
Q5) Had I not found my original ball. Could I have played my "provisional" or does that not count as it was unwittingly played in error? See dec 27-2a/2.5

27-2a/2.5 presumes that the ball that is not found is in the hazard; in the question asked that situation is not clear, although the associated post includes the actual ball being found in the area. Q3 implies that Q5 is in some way different.

if the original ball is not found, and there is no knowledge or virtual certainty that it is in the newly discovered hazard, then the provisional ball become the ball in play. the provisional was not played in error (as per the first sentence of your post #10 - the second sentence doesn't make any sense to me)

 

[atticusfinch]

Rather than going over each line, re read this premise and if it still does not make sense I will explaing my reasoning.

If the criteria for playing a provisional ball exist at the time it is declared and played,

 

[atticusfinch]

Too late to edit. take these to be the facts of the case:

1. He hit his tee shot into an area he did not know or believe was a water hazard. Thus he was authorized to play a provisional.
2. He played a provisional.
3. He discovered the area was a water hazard. He was “certain” his ball was in it. (I took this to satisfy KVC)
4. He found the original and abandoned the provisional. (It does not matter if it was in the hazard or if he had KVC at that point.)

 

[HawkeyeMS]

27-2a/2.5 presumes that the ball that is not found is in the hazard; in the question asked that situation is not clear, although the associated post includes the actual ball being found in the area. Q3 implies that Q5 is in some way different.

if the original ball is not found, and there is no knowledge or virtual certainty that it is in the newly discovered hazard, then the provisional ball become the ball in play. the provisional was not played in error (as per the first sentence of your post #10 - the second sentence doesn't make any sense to me)

Q5 was a "what if" question. In this particular case I was 100% sure on the tee that my ball was in the long grass, when I realised it was a hazard I then had KVC that the ball was in it. What I wasn't sure about was how my new found knowledge changed the status of the "provisional" ball.

 

[atticusfinch]

You did not have kvc of the water hazard at the time you played the provisional so it was appropriate.

Having later KVC of the location of the original has the same effect on the provisional as actually finding it but does not change the initial assessment. Having "found" it you proceed under the appropriate rule. The provisional is abandoned. It is then a wrong ball. (Unless it is lost/oob or you play it as in 27-2b)

 

[Colin L]

Sorry, Atticus, I don't understand what you are saying in the parenthesis at the end.

 

[duncan mackie]

Q5 was a "what if" question. In this particular case I was 100% sure on the tee that my ball was in the long grass, when I realised it was a hazard I then had KVC that the ball was in it. What I wasn't sure about was how my new found knowledge changed the status of the "provisional" ball.

that was how I read it Hawkeye

it's much simpler than it seems to be made out to be; your new found knowledge has simply established that the ball isn't lost or OOB in exactly the same way as finding it on the fairway. nothing more, nothing less and the provisions of 27-2c come into play in the normal way ie in this case the provisional is abandoned.

it's worth noting that if you had established that knowledge (that the ball was in the water hazard) before you played the ball from the tee it wouldn't be a provisional; you would be deemed as having played under 26-1a.

 

[Ethan]

I think the issue has been long since resolved, but in brief, he played a provisional when it seemed reasonable to do so. It later transpired that his original ball was in a hazard, so he picked up the provo and played on with the original or its replacement under no penalty or damage to his reputation. The end.

 

[Billythefish]

Played a medal last week. Hit a drive on the eight that looked out of bounds, however, it 'opens up' a bit where i hit it, so it was possibly still in play. Played a provisional, but played it with an iron cos I disnt want a cricket score.

My question is, as the original tee shot went a lot further than my second tee shot, would I have to walk the extra yards to check if my original ball was in play before going back to my provo ball, or could i play my provo ball before looking for my original tee shot? (It wasnt in, and i took a nine in the end!)