Ball holed out while ball of fellow-competitor or opponent is still in the hole

[eagles]

Could anybody point me to the rule or decision re. following situation :
Player A holes out but leaves his ball in the hole.
Subsequently Player B holes out by putting from the green; by doing so his ball obviously hits the ball of Player A while this is in the hole. (Both balls end up / are “at rest within the circumference of the hole and all of it is below the level of the lip of the hole”, that is not the point).
My reading of the rules of golf is that no penalty is incurred, in matchplay (one can even hit the ball of the opponent while it is on the green, without penalty) nor in strokeplay (the ball of fellow-competitor Player A is holed out, hence no longer his ball in play, hence has become an outside agency, hence no penalty ).
But…would anybody agree with some members of my club, who are convinced that in strokeplay Player B does incur a 2 strokes penalty in this case? And which rule justifies this?
Or…is there a ruling by which I hopefully can easily kill this misinterpretation of the rules?

 

[Master-putter]

I don't know the real ruling but i should think that it's all ok because what happens if; your opponent gets an eagle from 100 yards, and then you get an eagle from 80 yards? Surely this is the same concept?

 

[full_throttle]

i was under the impression that if you put into the hole with your opponents ball still in the hole then should you make the put you get a penalty.
from off the green as in the above then no penalty.

 

[Colin L]

But…would anybody agree with some members of my club, who are convinced that in strokeplay Player B does incur a 2 strokes penalty in this case? And which rule justifies this?

There is no such rule. Which means that you haven't anything to quote. What you need to do is ask them to point to the rule that supports their notion. It may be they think you are penalised for hitting your fellow competitor's ball but as you rightly say, the ball in the hole is no longer in play.

 

[rosecott]

Another addition to the long list of golf rules myths - always challenge, asking for the rule concerned.

 

[MashieNiblick]

The other thing about such a misconception is what on earth would be the point of it? Why would there be a Rule to penalise you for a situation in which you cannot possibly be gaining any improper or unfair advantage or acting in any way contrary to the nature of the game? We know some Rules are harsh but that would be taking things too far!

If you want to quote something the best is probably the definition of Ball in Play

"A ball is "in play" as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play...."
​

 

[CliveW]

^^^ My feeling would be the original ball was no longer in play as it had been holed, and when the second ball touched the first ball after being holed, it was no longer in play either, so no penalty.

 

[palindromicbob]

^^^ My feeling would be the original ball was no longer in play as it had been holed, and when the second ball touched the first ball after being holed, it was no longer in play either, so no penalty.

That's the way I read it. The only reason I can think for avoiding the practice is the risk that the hole may not be sunk to the correct depth resulting in a situation where, although within the cirumference of the hole, your ball could actually not be holed.

 

[Colin L]

^^^ My feeling would be the original ball was no longer in play as it had been holed, and when the second ball touched the first ball after being holed, it was no longer in play either, so no penalty.

That's the way I read it. The only reason I can think for avoiding the practice is the risk that the hole may not be sunk to the correct depth resulting in a situation where, although within the cirumference of the hole, your ball could actually not be holed.

Yes. It was well confirmed earlier in the thread that there is no penalty if this happens.

To be exact, Clive, the second ball would not be out of play when it touched the first one, but only when it had come to rest within the hole and below the rim. It seems unlikely, but if the second ball bounced back out off the first ball, it would not have been holed.

I think we are getting even further into the improbable, Bob, with your shallow hole. The ball is 1.68" in diameter and the hole is 4.25" in diameter - room for 2 balls side by side. It should be at least 4" deep which allows for 2 balls vertically. Room for 4 balls in there! It would have to remarkably shallow and too narrow as well. No liner either.

Now, let's have some fun in this realm of the hypothetically improbable. Some prankster comes along and almost fills the hole with earth. Your pitch wedges between the flagstick and the side of the hole but the ball is still above the rim. You walk up and take the flagstick out carefully to allow your ball to drop, but it can't because of the earth. Your ruling, ladies and gentlemen? (Duncan, hold back!)

 

[CMAC]

Can't believe this is even being discussed! No offence intended but common sense prevail, please.

However, by the response and the fact people at the OP's club think they know about this fictitious rule then I suppose it's always worth airing in the open.

Everyday's a school day.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Can't believe this is even being discussed! No offence intended but common sense prevail, please.

However, by the response and the fact people at the OP's club think they know about this fictitious rule then I suppose it's always worth airing in the open.

Everyday's a school day.

I think it's only being discussed because some players are under the misconception that it's a rule - and clarification is always handy to be able to rebutt such things.

Actually given a comment posted earlier on this topic - if when playing, someone tells me of a rule affecting my play that I disagree with - and I really feel confident that I am correct - then I will ask to be shown the rule. If that can't be done I'll play on and tell the other that I'll take my chances. If there is the opportunity to play a second ball and ask for a ruling later then I'll choose whether or not to do that. Too often, I feel, in matches especially rules are cited in a slightly mischievous way.

 

[eagles]

^^^ My feeling would be the original ball was no longer in play as it had been holed, and when the second ball touched the first ball after being holed, it was no longer in play either, so no penalty.

It's a detail that doesn't change anything fundamental in the discussion but...since the second ball is not yet at rest when it touches the first ball it is technically - read : according to the definitions - not holed out yet. But 1 ball out of play is already good enough for me...

 

[Colin L]

It's a detail that doesn't change anything fundamental in the discussion but...since the second ball is not yet at rest when it touches the first ball it is technically - read : according to the definitions - not holed out yet. But 1 ball out of play is already good enough for me...

Yes indeed - see post #9 for an unlikely situation where it would matter.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Now, let's have some fun in this realm of the hypothetically improbable. Some prankster comes along and almost fills the hole with earth. Your pitch wedges between the flagstick and the side of the hole but the ball is still above the rim. You walk up and take the flagstick out carefully to allow your ball to drop, but it can't because of the earth. Your ruling, ladies and gentlemen? (Duncan, hold back!)

Let me think this though:

Well as the ball isn't completely below the rim of the hole it is not dead; If the ball is not dead it must still be in play; If the ball is in play and it is not 'through the green' it can be marked; As the ball is jammed between the flag and the edge of the hole there is a point on the green at the edge of the hole where the ball touches the side f the hole and hence a point on the green where the marker can be placed. The flag can then be removed; As the earth in the hole is completely beneath the playing surface (in this case the green) it is therefore not part of the course; As the earth in the hole is not part of the course I can remove it - replace the flag - and replace my ball - jammed between the flag and the edge of the hole if that can be done; if not then placing it over the hole in the position it came to rest and release...

So where did I go wrong?

EDIT: Even if the muck in the hole is still 'part of the course' could it not be defined as loose impediments on the green and therefore be removed - all the rest above remaining done.

 

[Colin L]

An interesting concept that the earth below the playing surface is not part of the course. What's holding everything up then? Is there a danger of falling into a bottomless pit? ...... sorry, I'm being silly now.

By the way, this was just a daft "what if" idea that came to me for no good reason. I haven't as yet thought about an answer.

 

[Imurg]

Find the Git who did it and string him up....?

 

[Colin L]

I had in mind a suitable resting place for the flagstick.

 

[Imurg]

With or without Vaseline..?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

An interesting concept that the earth below the playing surface is not part of the course. What's holding everything up then? Is there a danger of falling into a bottomless pit? ...... sorry, I'm being silly now.

Yes - I understand that

However - if, when the ball is completely below the rim of the hole, it is deemed to be 'dead' then it cannot be on the course and so it has to be somewhere not on the course (and I can do whatever i wish to it without penalty). And so if earth in a hole is completely below the rim of the hole, then that too is 'dead' and therefore not on the course and if it is not on the course it cannot be part of the course - and I can do whatever I wish to it without penalty. And so I can remove the muck from the hole - following appropriate procedures as described

 

[duncan mackie]

Yes - I understand that

However - if, when the ball is completely below the rim of the hole, it is deemed to be 'dead' then it cannot be on the course and so it has to be somewhere not on the course (and I can do whatever i wish to it without penalty). And so if earth in a hole is completely below the rim of the hole, then that too is 'dead' and therefore not on the course and if it is not on the course it cannot be part of the course - and I can do whatever I wish to it without penalty. And so I can remove the muck from the hole - following appropriate procedures as described

you were doing a lot better in post #14..... (I've held back)