Ball disappeared into hole under lip of bunker

[North Mimms]

In social play so we didn't bother much about the rule, just dropped another ball.

Details:
Player thins ball while attempting to get it out of bunker.
It shoots into a small burrowed hole under front lip of bunker, and player can't get his big hand into hole to retrieve ball. Peering into hole, it seems to go some distance , so ball is most probably now sitting, unplayable, under grass.

What is the correct procedure to follow should this ever happen again?

Thanks

 

[Ethan]

In social play so we didn't bother much about the rule, just dropped another ball.

Details:
Player thins ball while attempting to get it out of bunker.
It shoots into a small burrowed hole under front lip of bunker, and player can't get his big hand into hole to retrieve ball. Peering into hole, it seems to go some distance , so ball is most probably now sitting, unplayable, under grass.

What is the correct procedure to follow should this ever happen again?

Thanks

I think you have little option but to drop another ball, under penalty and replay the shot, so effectively the ball is lost.

 

[duncan mackie]

It's a question of fact as to whether the ball is lost in an abnormal ground condition - from your description this would appear to be met.
However, as you cannot find it it is not open to interpretation or estimate as to where it actually is so the rules state that it is deemed to lie at the point it crosses into the AGC. Relief is then taken accordingly - here it would seem that this means the ball and AGC are in the bunker.

 

[North Mimms]

Thanks Duncan. So in this scenario, a ball is dropped in bunker 1club length from hole? No penalty shot added.

What if I squeezed my smaller hand into hole and found the ball, thus being able to estimate where the ball was lying?

 

[Spuddy]

Thanks Duncan. So in this scenario, a ball is dropped in bunker 1club length from hole? No penalty shot added.

What if I squeezed my smaller hand into hole and found the ball, thus being able to estimate where the ball was lying?

You would have to see your ball and identify it. There may be more than one in there

 

[louise_a]

the extent of a hazard extends above and below the boundary of the hazard so if the ball has travelled down the hole beyond the bunker lip it is no longer in the hazard. so I believe you can drop within 1 club length not nearer the hole outside the bunker with no penalty (relief from burrowing animals)

 

[Spuddy]

the extent of a hazard extends above and below the boundary of the hazard so if the ball has travelled down the hole beyond the bunker lip it is no longer in the hazard. so I believe you can drop within 1 club length not nearer the hole outside the bunker with no penalty (relief from burrowing animals)

...provided you can identify it. If you cant then you'll need to drop in the bunker

 

[louise_a]

...provided you can identify it. If you cant then you'll need to drop in the bunker

The rules seem to say that if it is known or virtually certain that the ball is lost in an abnormal ground situation ( the burrow) then you can still take free relief. (25-1C)

 

[shagster]

agree with louise_a, once the ball enters the hole it has left the bunker, and is then in GUR etc so its position can be estimated, similar to driving into lateral water, its an educated guess to correct position, but fact the ball went into the hole so no need to find

shagster

 

[rosecott]

the extent of a hazard extends above and below the boundary of the hazard so if the ball has travelled down the hole beyond the bunker lip it is no longer in the hazard. so I believe you can drop within 1 club length not nearer the hole outside the bunker with no penalty (relief from burrowing animals)

If the ball is not found and identified, you may drop within the bunker without penalty or outside the bunker with one stroke penalty. 25-1c(ii) which refers to 25-1b(ii).

 

[Spuddy]

The rules seem to say that if it is known or virtually certain that the ball is lost in an abnormal ground situation ( the burrow) then you can still take free relief. (25-1C)

It's still 'free' relief in the bunker (I.e. No penalty stroke). The only question is where to drop. Now if the hole had been in a grass bank leading into a bunker then the drop can be outside of it. Unfortunately in this case the entrance to the hole is within the hazard so unless you can identify the ball, that's where you need to drop.

 

[Foxholer]

It's still 'free' relief in the bunker (I.e. No penalty stroke). The only question is where to drop. Now if the hole had been in a grass bank leading into a bunker then the drop can be outside of it. Unfortunately in this case the entrance to the hole is within the hazard so unless you can identify the ball, that's where you need to drop.

In this case, I don't believe it makes any difference whether the ball can be be identified or not. I believe the fact that it may now be 'under grass' is irrelevant. It is in the hole made by a burroing animal in a bunker, so, I believe, it is in the bunker. I agree about the grass bank, but that is not the circumstances of the OP.

 

[MashieNiblick]

What if I squeezed my smaller hand into hole and found the ball, thus being able to estimate where the ball was lying?

In this case, I don't believe it makes any difference whether the ball can be be identified or not. I believe the fact that it may now be 'under grass' is irrelevant. It is in the hole made by a burroing animal in a bunker, so, I believe, it is in the bunker. I agree about the grass bank, but that is not the circumstances of the OP.

Decision 25-1b/23 - Ball Enters Burrowing Animal Hole Out of Bounds and Comes to Rest in Bounds -
confirms that in that scenario "the player may drop the ball, without penalty, within one club-length of the point on the ground directly above its position in the burrow. In such cases, vertical distance is disregarded in applying the Rules".

That suggests that in the OP case if the player knows where the ball is and knows it's their ball they take relief from the point on the ground above where it is lying. See also Decision 25-1b/25 Ball Enters Burrowing Animal Hole in Bunker and Is Found Underneath Putting Green.

Interesting one.

 

[Colin L]

To summarise.
If the hole can be identified as having been made by a burrowing animal, it is an abnormal ground condition from which relief may be taken without penalty.
If the ball is known to have entered the hole but cannot be found, the reference point for relief is the entrance to the hole which is in the bunker. The drop may be taken in the bunker without penalty or outside the bunker on the line from hole through the reference point with a one stroke penalty.
If the ball can be located in the hole, the reference point is outside the bunker on the ground directly above it.



(@Louise The margins of a bunker extend downwards only whereas the margins of a water hazard extend upwards and downwards.)

 

[MashieNiblick]

To summarise.
If the hole can be identified as having been made by a burrowing animal, it is an abnormal ground condition from which relief may be taken without penalty.
If the ball is known to have entered the hole but cannot be found, the reference point for relief is the entrance to the hole which is in the bunker. The drop may be taken in the bunker without penalty or outside the bunker on the line from hole through the reference point with a one stroke penalty.
If the ball can be located in the hole, the reference point is outside the bunker on the ground directly above it.

Thanks Colin, clear and succinct.

Can I ask a supplementary question?

In looking up decisions for this situation I also came across this

25-1b/25.5 Application of Exception to Rule 25-1b When Ball Lies Underground in Burrowing Animal Hole, which says

"Q. Through the green, a player’s ball comes to rest underground in a hole made by a burrowing animal. A large bush is immediately next to and overhanging the entrance to the hole. Given the Exception to Rule 25-1b, is the player entitled to relief without penalty from the burrowing animal hole?

"A. For the purpose of applying the Exception to Rule 25-1b, a ball lying underground in a burrowing animal hole is deemed to lie at the entrance to the hole. If the nature of the area surrounding the entrance to the hole is such that it is clearly impracticable for the player to make a stroke at a ball lying at any part of the entrance to the hole (e.g. because of the overhanging bush), the player is not entitled to relief without penalty under Rule 25-1b. Otherwise, the player is entitled to relief without penalty under Rule 25-1b."​

As I read this, in conjunction with the discussions above, it would seem that if I was taking relief I would take it from the point on the ground above where the ball lies, but If I was determining whether I was entitled to relief because of some other factor, I would have to deem the ball to lie at the entrance to the burrow. Am I reading that right? If so what is the thinking behind that as it seems a bit contradictory?

Diagram of a possible scenario below. Ball is in hole the entrance to which is at the base of a bush which would make a shot impossible. However a shot would be possible from a point above where the actually lies. Relief or no relief? Reading the decision it would seem the answer is no relief.



Thanks

 

[Foxholer]

Decision 25-1b/23 - Ball Enters Burrowing Animal Hole Out of Bounds and Comes to Rest in Bounds -
confirms that in that scenario "the player may drop the ball, without penalty, within one club-length of the point on the ground directly above its position in the burrow. In such cases, vertical distance is disregarded in applying the Rules".

That suggests that in the OP case if the player knows where the ball is and knows it's their ball they take relief from the point on the ground above where it is lying. See also Decision 25-1b/25 Ball Enters Burrowing Animal Hole in Bunker and Is Found Underneath Putting Green.

Interesting one.

Doh! I'd got very sleepy reading through the 25-1b decisions and didn't get to that one (or the 3 'related'). 25-1b/25 covers the OP perfectly.

 

[North Mimms]

To summarise.
If the hole can be identified as having been made by a burrowing animal, it is an abnormal ground condition from which relief may be taken without penalty.
If the ball is known to have entered the hole but cannot be found, the reference point for relief is the entrance to the hole which is in the bunker. The drop may be taken in the bunker without penalty or outside the bunker on the line from hole through the reference point with a one stroke penalty.
If the ball can be located in the hole, the reference point is outside the bunker on the ground directly above it.



(@Louise The margins of a bunker extend downwards only whereas the margins of a water hazard extend upwards and downwards.)

Thanks for the additional clarification.
Now I know the options, it will never happen again!