At what point is a card deemed to be signed?

[Iaing]

After yesterday's comp, a guy came into the bar panicking because he didn't think he'd signed his card before putting it in the box.
The girl behind the bar then gets the key and unlocks the box for him to check. He actually had signed it, but if he hadn't, would this have broken any rules?

 

[Five&One]

You have to sign the card before you leave the card signing/scoring area. That can be a tent or the clubhouse if you are handing it to someone for collection or wherever the club designates as the card signing area. In the case of a Dropbox you are deemed to have completed the process and left the scoring/signing area as soon as you drop the card in the box. Technically he should be DQ'd for an unsigned card, in the event that he hadnt signed it, however quickly he realised and however harsh such a ruling might be.

 

[DCB]

Rule 6-6 covers this. If he'd returned the card without signature it should have been a DQ. Never heard of or seen a card signing/scoring area outwith elite events or pro events. RoG don't say anything about this, just that a card must be returned as per 6-6.

 

[duncan mackie]

Rule 6-6 covers this. If he'd returned the card without signature it should have been a DQ. Never heard of or seen a card signing/scoring area outwith elite events or pro events. RoG don't say anything about this, just that a card must be returned as per 6-6.

well we have one, for exactly this reason - as a committee we are not in the business of DQ'ing people for technical infringements that can be avoided!

Our COC state that unless otherwise stated, the clubhouse and it's immediate surrounds constitute the scoring area for the purposes of rule 6-6d.

No more problems

6-6d/4 makes it clear that it is the committees responsibility to inform players how they must return their cards, and the guidance notes on running a competition include
'...Irrespective of method used, it is essential that the Committee make it clear when a competitor is considered to have “returned his card”, after which point no alterations may be made to the card. This should be established in the conditions of the competition in case a dispute arises. For example at The Open Championship, the following condition is used:

“Returning of Score Card
A player’s score card is deemed officially returned to the Committee when he has left the recording office/area.”'

 

[DCB]

Whilst I can see what you're saying, in the OPs post, the player returned and the box was opened for him to check his card. Surely the act of putting the card into the locked 'returned card' box is the point in the OPs post where the card had been returned ?

At my club we input scores into the computer and then post our cards into a box beside the computer. Once I do that, I've returned my card and can't do anything else about it surely.

 

[duncan mackie]

Whilst I can see what you're saying, in the OPs post, the player returned and the box was opened for him to check his card. Surely the act of putting the card into the locked 'returned card' box is the point in the OPs post where the card had been returned ?

At my club we input scores into the computer and then post our cards into a box beside the computer. Once I do that, I've returned my card and can't do anything else about it surely.

I was simply responding to your post that implied that Five&One's reference was inapplicable to club events.

The answer to your question lies in the definition of scoring area in the OP's clubs COC for the competition being played - whether he is subject to DQ or not will follow from that.

In the same way as it does at your club; if that's what constitutes 'returning your card'.

I would also suggest that it's quite common for clubs to operate 'scoring tables' at Club Championship events, Captains Day etc, as it obviously is with Pro-Am's, Am-Ams and most Open events - all of which is why it's important for the organising committee to clarify what constitutes returning a card.

 

[freddielong]

For me once its in the box it has been handed to the commitee and commited to the comp if it isn't signed its a D'q

School boy stuff not signing your card especially with a good score it s a lesson we all learn from

 

[rulefan]

It depends entirely on what the Committee has specified, whether it be a post box, a statement from a recorder, leaving a recorders' table, leaving the recording area.

6-6c/1 says it all.

ALTERATION OF SCORE CARD

6-6c/1

When Score Card Considered Returned

Q.Rule 6-6c prohibits alterations to the score card "after the competitor has returned it to the Committee." When is a score card considered returned?

A.This is a matter for the Committee to decide and it will vary depending on the nature of the competition.

The Committee should designate a "scoring area" where competitors are to return their score cards (e.g., in a tent, a trailer, the golf shop, by the scoreboard, etc.). When it has done so, Rule 6-6c should be interpreted in such a way that a competitor within the "scoring area" is considered to be in the process of returning his score card. Alterations may be made on the score card even if the competitor has handed the score card to a member of the Committee. He is considered to have returned his score card when he has left the scoring area.

Alternatively, the Committee may require a competitor to return his score card by placing it in a box and thus consider it returned when it is dropped into the box, even if he has not left the scoring area.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

When I used to run Junior Opens I would ask the players if they had checked and signed their cards before I took them.
Amazing how many DOH moments we had.

 

[Tommo21]

Forget this scoring area thing; at the three clubs I play everyone is the same. As soon as you enter your score on the computer, and/or put your card in the box............bang, that’s it. You cannot retrieve your card or be allowed to sign it.
The computer thing is a red herring really IMO; releasing your card into the box is the done deal as far as signing your card is concerned. If you are allowed to remove it after that, then where do you stop.

 

[Foxholer]

Forget this scoring area thing; at the three clubs I play everyone is the same. As soon as you enter your score on the computer, and/or put your card in the box............bang, that’s it. You cannot retrieve your card or be allowed to sign it.
The computer thing is a red herring really IMO; releasing your card into the box is the done deal as far as signing your card is concerned. If you are allowed to remove it after that, then where do you stop.

I agree with the sentiment - as do all the other posters I believe - but not with all the logic.

Agree that the computer entry is a red herring (unless ruled otherwise in CoCs).
Agree that card in box is irretrievable.

However, there has to be some definition as to what constitutes the 'no going back' point in order to comply with 6.6 as previously posted. As usual, the fact that it's a Committee responsibility means that getting it right - or even done - is fraught with risk!

 

[Colin L]

Forget this scoring area thing

Why? For some competitions (eg at my club this would include seniors' competitions and Open Competitions) you hand your card to a person. We need to define when the card has been submitted in those competitions as well as when a card is put in a box. It could be that the moment you put your card in that person's hand, it has been submitted; it could be, if you are being a bit more reasonable, that it is after you leave the room/tent in which that person is located ie "the scoring area". It seems to me reasonable to give the Committee member receiving the cards the chance to take a quick look at a card and pick up on any omission before it is too late. We do not necessarily want, as has been said, to be needlessly disqualifying players for technical errors.

 

[BTatHome]

I always sign my card when I fill out my name handicap etc.

It's been queried by a few folks when they take my card for marking, but for me its become standard practise. I almost handed in my card once without a signature, and would have lost out on a win. So took it upon myself to sign before starting the round to avoid such a situation.

I can't see a situation where it would cause me an issue, anyone ?

 

[Twire]

I always sign my card when I fill out my name handicap etc.

It's been queried by a few folks when they take my card for marking, but for me its become standard practise. I almost handed in my card once without a signature, and would have lost out on a win. So took it upon myself to sign before starting the round to avoid such a situation.

I can't see a situation where it would cause me an issue, anyone ?

But surely when you sign the card, your signing for the correct score?

 

[BTatHome]

But surely when you sign the card, your signing for the correct score?

True, but unless there is a major bust up over one of the scores which cant be settled then I wouldn't be handing in the card anyway until its sorted.

 

[williamalex1]

A old mate of mine was excited as he handed his card with a net 62 on it , to the person marking the score board. The offical said thank you, turned and wrote NR on the score board with my old mate still looking on in shock , as he was told you didn't sign your card son. Left a bad taste.jobsworth .

 

[duncan mackie]

A old mate of mine was excited as he handed his card with a net 62 on it , to the person marking the score board. The offical said thank you, turned and wrote NR on the score board with my old mate still looking on in shock , as he was told you didn't sign your card son. Left a bad taste.jobsworth .

whilst clearly the player should of signed his card first....this would also be a good example of why the rules are as specific as they are; I have to presume (always dangerous) that the COC required the player to return his card to a committee member by the scoreboard, in which case the rules are stunningly clear in this instance......"Rule 6-6c should be interpreted in such a way that a competitor within the "scoring area" is considered to be in the process of returning his score card. Alterations may be made on the score card even if the competitor has handed the score card to a member of the Committee. He is considered to have returned his score card when he has left the scoring area." ie he should have been permitted to sign the card...

 

[williamalex1]

whilst clearly the player should of signed his card first....this would also be a good example of why the rules are as specific as they are; I have to presume (always dangerous) that the COC required the player to return his card to a committee member by the scoreboard, in which case the rules are stunningly clear in this instance......"Rule 6-6c should be interpreted in such a way that a competitor within the "scoring area" is considered to be in the process of returning his score card. Alterations may be made on the score card even if the competitor has handed the score card to a member of the Committee. He is considered to have returned his score card when he has left the scoring area." ie he should have been permitted to sign the card...

I agree but he wasn't given the chance, had he been a well kent face he most likely been would have asked to recheck. Some clubs just don't like non members scoring TOO well in their opens. The previous year it was a member of the same club that won their open comp also with a 62 and calling a pitch and putt course .
The board marker maybe had a good memory.

 

[DCB]

I agree but he wasn't given the chance, had he been a well kent face he most likely been would have asked to recheck. Some clubs just don't like non members scoring TOO well in their opens. The previous year it was a member of the same club that won their open comp also with a 62 and calling a pitch and putt course .
The board marker maybe had a good memory.

But in this instance his card should still have been accepted as a qualifying score for handicap purposes. The committee monkey shouldn't have put NR on it.

 

[williamalex1]

But in this instance his card should still have been accepted as a qualifying score for handicap purposes. The committee monkey shouldn't have put NR on it.

I just called my old mate to ask details and he's still moaning about it. He did confirmed though, he was indeed cut 3 shots when he returned his score in the away book at our home club , which BTW all away scores must be entered. Still moaning after about 10 years.