Are these extra hole valid?

[Chisb]

Are these extra holes valid?

Hi,

In a 4BBB match one of my opponents mistakenly took two strokes more than they were entitled to and this mistake was only discovered after the match had been won by my opponents.
If correct strokes had been taken the match would have been halfed.
In the spirit of fairness that same evening when the mistake was uncovered by my partner, we called to inform our opponents and see if they wanted to make amends, they did.
I understand at this stage we were out of luck and if they had chosen to do nothing the match was as played, but they offered a 9 hole play-off.
We started these extra holes (back nine) and on the 15th green we lost a hole and our opponents declared 2up, this was incorrect and we corrected them stating 1up.
A heated discussion ensued where they informed us that they thought this was a do over of the holes where the incorrect strokes had been taken and that over these holes in the original match they were 1up. Obviously we refuted this and stated that that was ridiculous and not a valid format and that they were only 1up, to which they relented and agreed.
We won the play-off and assumed that we go through to the next round, but no!
After this play-off our opponents filed a claim on the original match without informing us that they had done this and of the detail of this claim.
Our club then ruled in our opponents favour without informing us either of the claim, or asking for our side of the issue (suspect).
I had to chase hard to get a meeting to give our side of the events and a further ruling was made again in our opponents favour, simply stating the extra holes were invalid and the original match stood.
Both teams share culpability in the original match for not establishing the correct strokes, but as soon as the extra holes were agreed and started, no claim can be made against the original match under the "timley" rule.
Can I ask for opinion with rules reference if poss, as to whether or not ignorance on the behalf of our opponents in relation to the extra holes is reason to call them invalid?
Or any other reason can be given to call them valid or invalid?

Thanks
Chris

 

[SammmeBee]

You gave them 2 strokes too many you mean.......keep looking for the leg to stand on.....

 

[rulie]

Re: Are these extra holes valid?

Hi,

In a 4BBB match one of my opponents mistakenly took two strokes more than they were entitled to and this mistake was only discovered after the match had been won by my opponents.
If correct strokes had been taken the match would have been halfed.
In the spirit of fairness that same evening when the mistake was uncovered by my partner, we called to inform our opponents and see if they wanted to make amends, they did.
I understand at this stage we were out of luck and if they had chosen to do nothing the match was as played, but they offered a 9 hole play-off.
We started these extra holes (back nine) and on the 15th green we lost a hole and our opponents declared 2up, this was incorrect and we corrected them stating 1up.
A heated discussion ensued where they informed us that they thought this was a do over of the holes where the incorrect strokes had been taken and that over these holes in the original match they were 1up. Obviously we refuted this and stated that that was ridiculous and not a valid format and that they were only 1up, to which they relented and agreed.
We won the play-off and assumed that we go through to the next round, but no!
After this play-off our opponents filed a claim on the original match without informing us that they had done this and of the detail of this claim.
Our club then ruled in our opponents favour without informing us either of the claim, or asking for our side of the issue (suspect).
I had to chase hard to get a meeting to give our side of the events and a further ruling was made again in our opponents favour, simply stating the extra holes were invalid and the original match stood.
Both teams share culpability in the original match for not establishing the correct strokes, but as soon as the extra holes were agreed and started, no claim can be made against the original match under the "timley" rule.
Can I ask for opinion with rules reference if poss, as to whether or not ignorance on the behalf of our opponents in relation to the extra holes is reason to call them invalid?
Or any other reason can be given to call them valid or invalid?

Thanks
Chris

Once the result of the match are officially announced or posted, the match stands as played. The Committee made the correct decision(s). See Decisions under Rule 6-2a, specifically 6-2a/5.

 

[Colin L]

Re: Are these extra holes valid?

Because the outcome of the match was already settled in accordance with the rules , as rule has said, the agreement to play a 9 hole playoff and all the shenanigans of misunderstanding the nature of that "playoff" were irrelevant. None of that could change the result and so you could not make any kind of claim concerning it.

 

[duncan mackie]

Hi,

In a 4BBB match one of my opponents mistakenly took two strokes more than they were entitled to and this mistake was only discovered after the match had been won by my opponents.
...
Thanks
Chris

The end.

Note to 6-2, 6-2a/1 etc covers the validity of the result.

The opponents should not have agreed to play any further holes, nor should you for that matter, but no agreement can negate the existing result of the match.

 

[Chisb]

Thanks Folks,

So basically the agreement to play extra holes has no standing in the rules and if brought into question must be ignored?

Just would like to ask if rule 2-5/7 comes into effect, as the one and only claim made was on the original round after the*extra holes had been played?

Many thanks

Chris

 

[Hosel Fade]

Out of curiosity, where did the extra two shots come from?

 

[Chisb]

Hostel Fade,

Stupidity and inexperience, as this is almost my first matchplay match.
I now know not to be trusting with other people's maths and watch out for messers, as this guy has given me the royal run around.

Thanks
Chris

 

[guest100718]

Hostel Fade,

Stupidity and inexperience, as this is almost my first matchplay match.
I now know not to be trusting with other people's maths and watch out for messers, as this guy has given me the royal run around.

Thanks
Chris

Lesson learnt! I always look up my oppos handicap and make sure the shots are correct. Single is easy, but 4BBB and greesomes are slighy different.

 

[Chisb]

Cheers Paddy,

I think was there already. Rule 2-5/7?

😊
Chris

 

[duncan mackie]

Just would like to ask if rule 2-5/7 comes into effect, as the one and only claim made was on the original round after the*extra holes had been played?

Many thanks

Chris

Chris,

You will need to explain your question in relation to 2-5/7 a little more.

If anything this decision, which covers quite a lot, helps explain the only situations that could lead to a valid claim in respect of a prior hole (basically new facts, incorrect handicaps established or wrong information given in respect of strokes taken.

So what was the basis of the outstanding claim you are now referencing?

 

[Chisb]

Hi Duncan,

My query is that my situation is similar to 2-5/7, where by agreement the match was resumed and that we then won the resumed match. Only then when our opponents obviously didn't like the result did they file by incorrect procces an invalid claim. Invalid by not informing us of the claim and the detail (correct process in the rules) and as in 2-5/7 beyond the time limit of the resumed match being started, as the claim was on the original match.
As in 2-5/7 they should have refused to play extra holes or played under protest, both of which they didn't. The only people who logically could or should have claimed against the original match, was my partner and me if our opponents refused to do anything when we informed them of the incorrect strokes taken (I know we would have lost at this stage, but they offered extra holes).

Thanks
Chris

 

[rulefan]

In the decision, it would seem the result has not been announced. Is this the situation in your case?

 

[duncan mackie]

Hi Duncan,

My query is that my situation is similar to 2-5/7, where by agreement the match was resumed and that we then won the resumed match. Only then when our opponents obviously didn't like the result did they file by incorrect procces an invalid claim. Invalid by not informing us of the claim and the detail (correct process in the rules) and as in 2-5/7 beyond the time limit of the resumed match being started, as the claim was on the original match.
As in 2-5/7 they should have refused to play extra holes or played under protest, both of which they didn't. The only people who logically could or should have claimed against the original match, was my partner and me if our opponents refused to do anything when we informed them of the incorrect strokes taken (I know we would have lost at this stage, but they offered extra holes).

Thanks
Chris

There are fundamental differences in the two situations.

In your match the opponents won and the match was therefore over. 2-5 sets out the basis on which the match result can be reopened "A claim relating to a prior hole in the match may only be considered by the*Committee*if it is based on facts previously unknown to the player making the claim and he had been given wrong information (Rules*6-2a*or*9) by an*opponent. Such a claim must be made in a timely manner." This wasn't the case in your match - note 6-2a deals specifically with handicaps not strokes.

In the example in 2-5/7 the players score on the 18th was agreed to be incorrect (Rule 9) and is therefore open to adjustment. B could have claimed the hole but agreed to a half and the match resumed. As such the result of the resumed match stands.

As to your opponents claim etc - there is no claim because the original result of the match stands as set out in 2-5 and copied above.

I hope this helps

 

[Chisb]

Basically the rules are a cheaters charter where Golf and the spirit of the game loose.
I now know - Do not trust your opponent , full questioning suspicion must be exercised at all times.
Don't think the rules mean anything once you leave the18th green, even though they pretend to offer reasonable recourse they don't. If the words "by agreement" are involved assume that any following result can be ignored on the challenge of "I don't like the result".

 

[Fyldewhite]

I think a "cheaters charter" is a bit strong. It was your fault at the end of the day. Never played a match where the shots haven't been worked out with all parties present on the first tee. It's only a bit of maths.......4BBB....."who's the low man? right, I get 2 he gets 7 and he gets 15"....job done surely?

Like you said, inexperience, but if you had just made sure, none of the subsequent shenanigans would have happened. Also, sounds like a genuine mistake rather than an attempt to cheat if you ask me.

 

[Hosel Fade]

Hang on so did they give wrong handicaps or did you calculate the allowance incorrectly?

 

[duncan mackie]

Basically the rules are a cheaters charter where Golf and the spirit of the game loose.
I now know - Do not trust your opponent , full questioning suspicion must be exercised at all times.
Don't think the rules mean anything once you leave the18th green, even though they pretend to offer reasonable recourse they don't. If the words "by agreement" are involved assume that any following result can be ignored on the challenge of "I don't like the result".

It's a shame that you take things this way, but as you've posted it here I think it's important to consider it from the other perspective...

"In the spirit of fairness that same evening when the mistake was uncovered by my partner, we called to inform our opponents and see if they wanted to make amends, they did."

Bluntly there were no amends to make, and they aren't entitled to make any. All you have done by contacting them in this way is to create an opportunity for confusion. You infer in your following comment that you realise you lost under the rules, yet you still proceeded. At the time it's entirely possible that they hadn't a clue about the true nature of things. I know a huge number of people who would have done the same - the realities of what would happen next would vary from those who then discussed it and would call back and say "sorry, there's nothing we can do and the match result will stand whatever we agree now" to those who will quietly play and accept the result of that without comment.

 

[duncan mackie]

Hang on so did they give wrong handicaps or did you calculate the allowance incorrectly?

We were told it was a (shared) misunderstanding over strokes taken. See 2-5/13.

 

[Chisb]

I think a "cheaters charter" is a bit strong. It was your fault at the end of the day. Never played a match where the shots haven't been worked out with all parties present on the first tee. It's only a bit of maths.......4BBB....."who's the low man? right, I get 2 he gets 7 and he gets 15"....job done surely?

Like you said, inexperience, but if you had just made sure, none of the subsequent shenanigans would have happened. Also, sounds like a genuine mistake rather than an attempt to cheat if you ask me.

Yep a fair representation of what happend (wrong maths included, where I should have been automatically distrustful, golf looses, but hey ho lesson learnt, watch out for cheats) and subsequently with no malice it was pointed out to our opponents and by agreement extra holes arranged (golf wins and admission that the original match result no longer stands).
Start the extra holes under the logical and only assumption we all start from scratch (no protest made to keep open a possible claim on the original match by our opponents, golf wins). Crazy assumption of the format we were playing under is announced by our opponents, which gives them a starting advantage of one hole (cheats), they agree to continue under the correct format because i was shanking and they were correctly one up and there was only 3 holes left to play and they thought they were going to win anyway, my partner plays a blinder and we win in another 4 holes (golf wins). They don't like this and refuse to shake hands and two days later file a claim (cheats, golf looses).
Hence my original question, just because they were confused (again) as to the correct and only format these extra holes were started under does that make them invalid? If not then 2-5/7 makes them unable to claim against the original match and we rightly win against a pair of messers.

Chris