Another winter rules question - embedded ball

[cliveb]

We have a local winter rule that allows a ball embedded in its own pitch mark anywhere through the green to be lifted and dropped.

Yesterday, I arrived at my ball in the semi-rough to find it nestling in an obvious ball-sized hole, but it was not clear whether that hole was its own pitch mark. Am I allowed to lift it in order to ascertain whether or not it was in its own pitch mark?

In the end, a FC came over and we did lift it a couple of inches. It then became clear that it wasn't in its own pitchmark and so I replaced the ball in the hole. Did I break a rule in doing so?

 

[williamalex1]

We have a local winter rule that allows a ball embedded in its own pitch mark anywhere through the green to be lifted and dropped.

Yesterday, I arrived at my ball in the semi-rough to find it nestling in an obvious ball-sized hole, but it was not clear whether that hole was its own pitch mark. Am I allowed to lift it in order to ascertain whether or not it was in its own pitch mark?

In the end, a FC came over and we did lift it a couple of inches. It then became clear that it wasn't in its own pitchmark and so I replaced the ball in the hole. Did I break a rule in doing so?

I think you're allowed to lift, identify then replace.

 

[rulefan]

This gives you permission

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-0.7

 

[cliveb]

This gives you permission

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-0.7

OK, thanks.

 

[rosecott]

We have a local winter rule that allows a ball embedded in its own pitch mark anywhere through the green to be lifted and dropped.

Yesterday, I arrived at my ball in the semi-rough to find it nestling in an obvious ball-sized hole, but it was not clear whether that hole was its own pitch mark. Am I allowed to lift it in order to ascertain whether or not it was in its own pitch mark?

In the end, a FC came over and we did lift it a couple of inches. It then became clear that it wasn't in its own pitchmark and so I replaced the ball in the hole. Did I break a rule in doing so?

Only if you failed to mark it before lifting.

 

[cliveb]

Only if you failed to mark it before lifting.

That brings up an interesting issue. What is the purpose of marking? Presumably it's so that you know exactly where the ball was. But if you're lifting it out of a pitch mark (or similar hole), isn't the mark itself sufficient to show the ball's location?

(There have been cases recently where my ball has plugged on the green, and I have needed to place the marker a couple of inches away from the ball in order to be able to repair the pitch mark. Estimating the exact position to replace the ball relative to a marker that I know was a couple of inches away seems less accurate than putting a ball back into a hole, even though it wasn't marked).

It strikes me that insisting a marker be used when the location of the ball is completely obvious seems a bit OTT.

 

[rosecott]

That brings up an interesting issue. What is the purpose of marking? Presumably it's so that you know exactly where the ball was. But if you're lifting it out of a pitch mark (or similar hole), isn't the mark itself sufficient to show the ball's location?

(There have been cases recently where my ball has plugged on the green, and I have needed to place the marker a couple of inches away from the ball in order to be able to repair the pitch mark. Estimating the exact position to replace the ball relative to a marker that I know was a couple of inches away seems less accurate than putting a ball back into a hole, even though it wasn't marked).

It strikes me that insisting a marker be used when the location of the ball is completely obvious seems a bit OTT.

We would end up with an even more complex set of rules if we inserted unnecessary exceptions. A rule requiring the ball to be marked before lifting would become ridiculous if every possible exception imaginable were to be considered worthy of specifying. It's no hardship to stick a tee in the ground.

 

[cliveb]

We would end up with an even more complex set of rules if we inserted unnecessary exceptions. A rule requiring the ball to be marked before lifting would become ridiculous if every possible exception imaginable were to be considered worthy of specifying. It's no hardship to stick a tee in the ground.

Fair enough.

So the obvious follow-up question is: how far away from the ball is the marker allowed to be? Bear in mind my previous comment about having to mark a plugged ball on the green a couple of inches away in order to have room to repair the pitch mark.

 

[Ross61]

Fair enough.

So the obvious follow-up question is: how far away from the ball is the marker allowed to be? Bear in mind my previous comment about having to mark a plugged ball on the green a couple of inches away in order to have room to repair the pitch mark.

On the green I would use a putter blade length the same method as moving off someone's line of putt.

 

[rulefan]

That brings up an interesting issue. What is the purpose of marking? Presumably it's so that you know exactly where the ball was. But if you're lifting it out of a pitch mark (or similar hole), isn't the mark itself sufficient to show the ball's location?

(There have been cases recently where my ball has plugged on the green, and I have needed to place the marker a couple of inches away from the ball in order to be able to repair the pitch mark. Estimating the exact position to replace the ball relative to a marker that I know was a couple of inches away seems less accurate than putting a ball back into a hole, even though it wasn't marked).

It strikes me that insisting a marker be used when the location of the ball is completely obvious seems a bit OTT.

In the OB, it wasn't clear if the ball was actually embedded. So it had to be marked to ensure it's position was known accurately. If there was no real depression, just the ball sitting low in long or springy grass, it may not have been possible to see exactly where it was.

If however, it was obviously embedded in the surface of the soil, then there is no requirement to mark the ball.

See the wording of Rule 25-2
it may be lifted, cleaned and dropped,"

and Decision 20-1/0.7
"marks the position of the ball before lifting it, does not clean the ball and gives his opponent or fellow-competitor an opportunity to observe the lifting".

 

[rulefan]

Fair enough.

So the obvious follow-up question is: how far away from the ball is the marker allowed to be? Bear in mind my previous comment about having to mark a plugged ball on the green a couple of inches away in order to have room to repair the pitch mark.

It has to mark the position accurately enough to replace the ball where it was. See my post above re marking or not.

Re on the green, it is better to mark the ball closely and then mark the mark a putter head length away.

 

[rosecott]

In the OB, it wasn't clear if the ball was actually embedded. So it had to be marked to ensure it's position was known accurately. If there was no real depression, just the ball sitting low in long or springy grass, it may not have been possible to see exactly where it was.

If however, it was obviously embedded in the surface of the soil, then there is no requirement to mark the ball.

See the wording of Rule 25-2
it may be lifted, cleaned and dropped,"

and Decision 20-1/0.7
"marks the position of the ball before lifting it, does not clean the ball and gives his opponent or fellow-competitor an opportunity to observe the lifting".

I'm slightly confused. Doesn't 25-2 refer to close mown area?

 

[rulefan]

I'm slightly confused. Doesn't 25-2 refer to close mown area?[/QUOTE

It does but the Local Rule for Through the Green is the same.

"may be lifted, cleaned and dropped,"

 

[Hosel Fade]

To be honest this should be posted at 95%+ clubs as a local rule year round, the only way I can understand it not being done is if a course has extensive sandy waste areas where it is felt a plugged ball is an appropriate challenge to present.

 

[duncan mackie]

To be honest this should be posted at 95%+ clubs as a local rule year round, the only way I can understand it not being done is if a course has extensive sandy waste areas where it is felt a plugged ball is an appropriate challenge to present.

I agree. It is the only rule I have a problem with. The guidance notes state that the committee should make a LR if it's going to happen so it makes sense to have it in place because if it does happen the LR should be in place!

 

[Colin L]

To be honest this should be posted at 95%+ clubs as a local rule year round, the only way I can understand it not being done is if a course has extensive sandy waste areas where it is felt a plugged ball is an appropriate challenge to present.

It could be used at such a course and still leave the challenge as there is an exception to the relief:
A player may not take relief under this Local Rule if the ball is embedded in sand in an area that is not closely-mown.