Another rules myth?

[rosecott]

I had another rules situation yesterday where a FC suggested something which, at the time as a first reaction, sounded as if there might be some truth to it.

Being that time of the year and with a pretty strong gusty wind, there was a hefty accumulation of leaves on the green. My ball lay on the fringe covered in leaves. I removed a large number of the leaves from around my ball making sure not to touch the ball - thinking back now, I could have made it easier by picking and placing under Winter Rules. There was still a large accumulation of leaves lying on the green between ball and hole. The FC suggested that, while it was OK to clear the leaves around my ball, I could not clear a path through the leaves which lay on the green since my ball was not on the green.

Since I didn't have the Decisions book handy and was already fed up clearing leaves, I just went ahead and played through them. It was one of those situations where a suggestion put enough doubt in the mind to almost believe it.

 

[Spuddy]

Through the green you can clear as many leaves as you want providing they are loose. The only thing to be careful about when off the green is that you can't move sand or soil.

 

[Fyldewhite]

As above......and yes, a very common myth. Many players seem to think you have to actually be on the green to do things like move loose impediments or fix a pitch mark etc. A good one to be aware of because as you say, it does sound plausible if you don't have a rule book to hand.

 

[Region3]

Through the green you can clear as many leaves as you want providing they are loose. The only thing to be careful about when off the green is that you can't move sand or soil.

You can move sand and soil if it is on the green even if you are off it.

I've had more than the odd one or two people try to tell me you can't move stuff on the green if you're ball isn't on it, and they usually cite the incident where McIlroy got penalised for brushing sand away that wasn't on the green.

Apart from just telling them they're wrong, I usually ask them to give me a good reason why you can't move leaves that are in your way on the green when you can move them from anywhere else through the green. No one has yet come up with a good answer. They usually say "(so and so) told me".

 

[duncan mackie]

i think the missing link in such discussions is that the position of the ball is completely irrelevant to the status of a loose impediment except in a hazard.

sand and loose soil are loose impediments only when they are on the green.

why some people find it difficult to relate to this simple concept I don't know, but I believe that it's generally related to picking up half the story on rules issues from televised events rather than any knowledge of the rules. The commentators don't help in this regard!

23-1. Relief

Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.

 

[Slab]

i think the missing link in such discussions is that the position of the ball is completely irrelevant to the status of a loose impediment except in a hazard.

sand and loose soil are loose impediments only when they are on the green.

why some people find it difficult to relate to this simple concept I don't know, but I believe that it's generally related to picking up half the story on rules issues from televised events rather than any knowledge of the rules. The commentators don't help in this regard!

23-1. Relief

Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.

In isolation that one point isn't difficult to get wrong... but wrap it up in the other 499 pages of decisions/definitions and rules and its a lot easier to forget/get wrong

 

[TheJezster]

Whilst I've not come across anyone telling me I cant move leaves, I did have an instance yesterday when in a winter 4ball match our opponents said I couldn't repair a pitch mark as I was off the green. He said he wouldn't call me for it as it wasn't that type of match but I should be aware for future as others might claim the hole (or whatever the penalty is). I had already repaired it when he told me. Is that right then, can I not repair a pitch mark if I'm off the green?

 

[duncan mackie]

Whilst I've not come across anyone telling me I cant move leaves, I did have an instance yesterday when in a winter 4ball match our opponents said I couldn't repair a pitch mark as I was off the green. He said he wouldn't call me for it as it wasn't that type of match but I should be aware for future as others might claim the hole (or whatever the penalty is). I had already repaired it when he told me. Is that right then, can I not repair a pitch mark if I'm off the green?

as with my comment above, the only issue is where the pitchmark is - where you or your ball are isn't relevant to whether you can repair it or not. rule 16-1c, permitting the repair of pitchmarks on the putting green makes no distinction regarding where you are.

 

[Foxholer]

Whilst I've not come across anyone telling me I cant move leaves, I did have an instance yesterday when in a winter 4ball match our opponents said I couldn't repair a pitch mark as I was off the green. He said he wouldn't call me for it as it wasn't that type of match but I should be aware for future as others might claim the hole (or whatever the penalty is). I had already repaired it when he told me. Is that right then, can I not repair a pitch mark if I'm off the green?

You can repair a pitchmark on the green at any time.

There is only 1 very rare situation when you can repair a pitchmark that is on your line if you are off the green.

 

[duncan mackie]

You can repair a pitchmark on the green at any time.

There is only 1 very rare situation when you can repair a pitchmark that is on your line if you are off the green.

you really didn't mean to write that this way......especially in this discussion!

I'll leave you to clarify

 

[Spuddy]

Whilst I've not come across anyone telling me I cant move leaves, I did have an instance yesterday when in a winter 4ball match our opponents said I couldn't repair a pitch mark as I was off the green. He said he wouldn't call me for it as it wasn't that type of match but I should be aware for future as others might claim the hole (or whatever the penalty is). I had already repaired it when he told me. Is that right then, can I not repair a pitch mark if I'm off the green?

If the pitch mark is on the green then you can repair it, regardless of where the ball is. If the pitch mark is off the green then you can't repair it before playing your shot.

 

[TheJezster]

You can repair a pitchmark on the green at any time.

There is only 1 very rare situation when you can repair a pitchmark that is on your line if you are off the green.

Um, pardon?

Now you have completely confused me! I can or cant repair the pitch mark i'f im off the green?

 

[Spuddy]

You can repair a pitchmark on the green at any time.

There is only 1 very rare situation when you can repair a pitchmark that is on your line if you are off the green.

if it's created by your FC after your balls at rest?

 

[Foxholer]

if it's created by your FC after your balls at rest?

That's the one - and you have to know that was the case!

 

[Region3]

Um, pardon?

Now you have completely confused me! I can or cant repair the pitch mark i'f im off the green?

If the pitch mark is on the green, yes you can.

 

[TheJezster]

If the pitch mark is on the green, yes you can.

Brilliant, thanks.

 

[Val]

You forgot to add the myth about moving sand on the green has to be done with the back of your hand as if you do it with the front you are deemed to be testing the surface

 

[Foxholer]

You can repair a pitchmark on the green at any time.

There is only 1 very rare situation when you can repair a pitchmark that is on your line if you are off the green.

you really didn't mean to write that this way......especially in this discussion!

I'll leave you to clarify

Doh! Good point! Definite 'brain/finger-fart'!

Try....

You can repair a pitchmark that is on the green at any time.

There is (only) 1 very rare situation when you can repair a pitchmark, on your line-of-play, that is off the green.