Another query during matchplay!

[AmandaJR]

I am beginning to think the golf gods are determined for me to learn every rule in the book....so....

Greensomes Match yesterday and on the 1st hole opponent pulled her shot and possibly ob. Her partner played a provisional and we proceeded to look for the original ball in the rough stuff/river edge. Opponent found said ball by virtue of standing straight on it!

Is that a penalty?

She then looks closer to identify and quickly backs off as the area was somewhere near to an ants nest as lots of the crawling blighters around. The area had lots of grass cuttings in dried clumps which were on/around the ball and moving those was a hazard not least due to the ants! They didn't ask and we didn't offer relief and didn't even think until afterwards if this could be considered abnormal ground conditions.

Thoughts??

 

[Ethan]

Standing on ball is not a penalty.

Rule 18-3 - (Ball at Rest Moved) By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play

a. During Search
If, during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

Abnormal Ground Conditions:

Definition: An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

Ants do not meet that definition.

 

[CMAC]

I was sure the rule had changed and a player or caddie moving their ball in a search was penalised? pretty sure that wasnt the case awhile back but I'm sure I saw it recently somewhere, maybe even in the GM mag!

Isnt there also a rule covering if a player could be in peril/danger etc and relief given (ants can give nasty bites)

 

[AmandaJR]

Standing on ball is not a penalty.

Rule 18-3 - (Ball at Rest Moved) By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play

a. During Search
If, during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

Abnormal Ground Conditions:

Definition: An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

Ants do not meet that definition.

That's what I thought although did read some stuff about "fire-ants" (USA I think) and possible local rules to allow for those nasties!

 

[Ethan]

I was sure the rule had changed and a player or caddie moving their ball in a search was penalised? pretty sure that wasnt the case awhile back but I'm sure I saw it recently somewhere, maybe even in the GM mag!

Isnt there also a rule covering if a player could be in peril/danger etc and relief given (ants can give nasty bites)

That is the rule as currently listed in the R&A Rules Explorer.

Dangerous conditions could include rattlesnakes or bees, but I am not sure that ants (at least not those found in the UK) would meet the standard. Can I get a drop out of the nettles?

 

[rosecott]

Standing on ball is not a penalty.

Rule 18-3 - (Ball at Rest Moved) By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play

a. During Search
If, during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

Rule 18-3 is not applicable in this case. Amanda's opponent stood on her own ball, not an opponent's ball.

 

[Ethan]

Rule 18-3 is not applicable in this case. Amanda's opponent stood on her own ball, not an opponent's ball.

Oops, correct, not the opponent.

That'll be a one shot penalty, then.

 

[AmandaJR]

Rule 18-3 is not applicable in this case. Amanda's opponent stood on her own ball, not an opponent's ball.

Ooh. So a penalty or loss of hole?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ants - hmmm - just sounds like one of those situations where the player is the sole judge of whether or not a ball is playable or not - unless there is a local rule when an 'ant problem' is recognised by the club.

 

[rosecott]

She then looks closer to identify and quickly backs off as the area was somewhere near to an ants nest as lots of the crawling blighters around. The area had lots of grass cuttings in dried clumps which were on/around the ball and moving those was a hazard not least due to the ants! They didn't ask and we didn't offer relief and didn't even think until afterwards if this could be considered abnormal ground conditions.
Thoughts??

Her only chance in the absence of a specific local rule on ant nests would be to have an expert swear that they were fire ants.

Q.An ant hill is a loose impediment and may be removed, but there is no other relief without penalty. Some ant hills are conical in shape and hard, and removal is not possible, but relief under Rule 25-1b is not available since an ant is not a burrowing animal. If such ant hills interfere with the proper playing of the game, would a Local Rule providing relief be authorized?
A.Yes. A Local Rule stating that such ant hills are to be treated as ground under repair would be justified.
Such a Local Rule is also justified on courses where fire-ants exist. A fire-ants' mound or hill is removable, but its removal will cause the fire-ants to swarm out of the ground. When this occurs, anyone in the vicinity is in danger of being bitten by the ants, and the bite of a fire-ant can cause serious illness.
If a Local Rule giving relief from fire-ants has not been adopted and a ball is so close to a fire-ants' mound that the player is in danger, the player is, in equity, entitled to relief as prescribed in Decision 1-4/10.

 

[Whereditgo]

Oops, correct, not the opponent.

That'll be a one shot penalty, then.

This came as a bit of a surprise to me, so if I hit the ball into the cabbage in a medal and my FC's are assisting in the search it's not a problem if they accidently stand on my ball, but if I accidently stand on my own ball during the search it's a penalty?

Perhaps another of those instances whereby an incorrectly interpreted rule has become 'general knowledge' by word of mouth?

 

[rosecott]

This came as a bit of a surprise to me, so if I hit the ball into the cabbage in a medal and my FC's are assisting in the search it's not a problem if they accidently stand on my ball, but if I accidently stand on my own ball during the search it's a penalty?

Perhaps another of those instances whereby an incorrectly interpreted rule has become 'general knowledge' by word of mouth?

Yup - life's not fair, is it.

 

[Colin L]

Ooh. So a penalty or loss of hole?

One shot penalty and replace the ball. Loss of hole if she didn't replace it.

 

[Region3]

One shot penalty and replace the ball. Loss of hole if she didn't replace it.

If all she had done was squash it into the ground a bit, how does she replace it?
Is she entitled to a similar lie to what she originally had even if that requires the ball to be moved sideways slightly, or should it be played as it lies?

 

[Colin L]

I should have anticipated that question! If the lie of a ball to be replaced has been altered, you find the nearest similar lie within a club length. (Rule 20-3b).

In this case, the ball has probably been pressed into the ground by the weight of the player with no way of restoring it to its previous vertical place.

 

[AmandaJR]

Just a thought - if it's a pairs match and their partner treads on the ball is it also a penalty? In this case it was Greensomes so the only ball in play but if it was 4BBB?

 

[6inchcup]

could the mounds of cut grass be deemed as clippings left by the greens staff and thus be gur and a drop?

 

[AmandaJR]

could the mounds of cut grass be deemed as clippings left by the greens staff and thus be gur and a drop?

I think the term is "left for removal" so clumps and bits around the course as they try to keep topside of the rough wouldn't count...

 

[jammydodger]

Amanda's right , if it's stuff left for removal by the greenkeeper then a free drop is ok. If its just scattered around in the rough to be left for rotting down then no relief.

 

[6inchcup]

I think the term is "left for removal" so clumps and bits around the course as they try to keep topside of the rough wouldn't count...

who decides if it was left for removal but someone disturbed it looking for a ball previously,i think i would be trying to claim it.