Am I entitled to the original lie?

[Canfordhacker]

So today I hit a wayward drive into the fairway bunker of the previous hole, 120 yards to my green. Had a perfect lie in there, and hit a fabulous shot out. It sailed in between the telegraph wires without hitting them. But the thought struck me - if it had hit the wire, I am obliged to replay the shot. I would have to drop in the bunker, and probably get a plugged lie. Am I entitled to re-create the le I originally had if that happens? I know I can if another player is in the same bunker and disrupts my lie in playing his shot.

I would have been mightily annoyed if I was in effect penalised - just wondering.

 

[rulefan]

The Local rule refers you to Rule 14.6. I'm afraid 14-6b states

Previous Stroke Made from General Area, Penalty Area or Bunker
Your original ball or another ball must be dropped in this relief area:

• Reference Point: The spot where your previous stroke was made (which if not known must be estimated).
• Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length, but with these limits:
• Limits on Location of Relief Area:
  • Must be in the same area of the course as your reference point, and
  • Must not be nearer the hole than your reference point.

 

[jim8flog]

So today I hit a wayward drive into the fairway bunker of the previous hole, 120 yards to my green. Had a perfect lie in there, and hit a fabulous shot out. It sailed in between the telegraph wires without hitting them. But the thought struck me - if it had hit the wire, I am obliged to replay the shot. I would have to drop in the bunker, and probably get a plugged lie. Am I entitled to re-create the le I originally had if that happens? I know I can if another player is in the same bunker and disrupts my lie in playing his shot.

I would have been mightily annoyed if I was in effect penalised - just wondering.

Where you have wires the course has two options
1. A local rule that says the shot must be replayed if the ball hits the wire or supports.
2. No local rule

The rules (14.6) state that the ball must be dropped

 

[Imurg]

Is he allowed to rake the bunker before dropping?

 

[Colin L]

An interesting question indeed, and a situation I've never come across, not even hypothetically. In practical terms, you would be dropping your ball in a relief area within a club length of the original spot where your ball lay and although there is no way of avoiding the possibliity of its plugging (just be thankful it's from knee not shoulder height!), that should give you enough space to avoid dropping in a disturbed area. Because playing from where you made the original stroke is in a relief area whether in a bunker or in the general area there is clearly no presumption that you will be replaying the shot from exactly where it lay and so I would rule out recreating the original lie. But I would think it reasonable to allow the player to rake and then drop on the basis that the area was raked when the ball originally landed and he is entitled to have the ground in the same state as it was, even though he himself was responsible for disturbing it. But I don't have any specific rule to base that on. As to the lie, I'd leave that to the randomness of the drop. If it plugs and hadn't been plugged the first time round, too bad. If it doesn't plug and had been first time round, you get a lucky

 

[DickInShorts]

Presumably this would be the same situation as when a ball from a bunker is hit OB?
If so - this is likely to be a relatively common occurrence so is surely covered by 14.6b

 

[rulefan]

Presumably this would be the same situation as when a ball from a bunker is hit OB?
If so - this is likely to be a relatively common occurrence so is surely covered by 14.6b

Exactly right.
This Rule (14.6b) applies whenever you are required or allowed to make your next stroke from where a previous stroke was made (that is, when taking stroke-and-distance relief, or playing again after a stroke that is cancelled or otherwise does not count).

 

[Colin L]

Presumably this would be the same situation as when a ball from a bunker is hit OB?
If so - this is likely to be a relatively common occurrence so is surely covered by 14.6b

Yes, but the OP's question is whether he can rake the bunker before dropping and 14.6b doesn't answer that.

I fear I was over-complicating the matter earlier. The ball is outside the bunker and so the bunker can be raked. 12.2b3

 

[salfordlad]

Is he allowed to rake the bunker before dropping?

Bunker repair is directly permitted by 12.2b(3) with one qualification, it needs to happen before the cancelled stroke (or S&D/OOB action) is dropped back into play.

 

[Colin L]

Seems to be an echo in here.

 

[Canfordhacker]

Presumably this would be the same situation as when a ball from a bunker is hit OB?
If so - this is likely to be a relatively common occurrence so is surely covered by 14.6b

I don't think it is the same. The free drop if I hit the wires indicates I have done nothing "wrong" - whereas if I have hit it OB I accept I must take my medicine. The local rule says that I MUST disregard the shot. My feeling is that being plugged in the bunker is not equitable. Not having the option to continue with the original ball compounds that in my opinion. I was just seeking clarity as it is a real possibility from that bunker.

 

[rulefan]

I don't think it is the same. The free drop if I hit the wires indicates I have done nothing "wrong" - whereas if I have hit it OB I accept I must take my medicine. The local rule says that I MUST disregard the shot. My feeling is that being plugged in the bunker is not equitable. Not having the option to continue with the original ball compounds that in my opinion. I was just seeking clarity as it is a real possibility from that bunker.

This Rule (14.6b) "applies whenever you are required or allowed to make your next stroke from where a previous stroke was made (that is, when taking stroke-and-distance relief, or playing again after a stroke that is cancelled or otherwise does not count)."

 

[Swango1980]

Always hated the rule that the ball must be dropped in the bunker. I'm sure it is the same everywhere, but at my place you are then guaranteed a plugged lie. Yet, it is rare to get a plugged lie when entering the bunker originally, because the ball often rolls to its final resting place. This has a huge impact, well it certainly does on fairway bunker shots. Suddenly you go from a position where you can play a full shot and hit it cleanly, to a position where you just have to blast it out a few yards up the fairway.

Mind you, they keep changing the rules to allow us it drop from lower heights. I suspect the next rule change will be from ankle height, then shoe height, then 1mm, before finally deciding to let us just place the thing on the ground and get on with it.

 

[rulie]

Always hated the rule that the ball must be dropped in the bunker. I'm sure it is the same everywhere, but at my place you are then guaranteed a plugged lie. Yet, it is rare to get a plugged lie when entering the bunker originally, because the ball often rolls to its final resting place. This has a huge impact, well it certainly does on fairway bunker shots. Suddenly you go from a position where you can play a full shot and hit it cleanly, to a position where you just have to blast it out a few yards up the fairway.

Mind you, they keep changing the rules to allow us it drop from lower heights. I suspect the next rule change will be from ankle height, then shoe height, then 1mm, before finally deciding to let us just place the thing on the ground and get on with it.

The height from which to drop a ball under the Rules has changed once in the last 60 years, in 2019. Don't hold your breath for another change.

 

[Colin L]

I don't think it is the same. The free drop if I hit the wires indicates I have done nothing "wrong" - whereas if I have hit it OB I accept I must take my medicine. The local rule says that I MUST disregard the shot. My feeling is that being plugged in the bunker is not equitable. Not having the option to continue with the original ball compounds that in my opinion. I was just seeking clarity as it is a real possibility from that bunker.

Your medicine for putting your ball out of bounds is stroke and distance. The kind of lie you get from dropping a ball is not part of the "punishment". Relief other than in the teeing area or on the putting green is almost always by dropping a ball (unless you develop professional skills in getting your ball to roll out of relief areas) whether there is a penalty attached or not. It's a random matter and you might on another occasion get a better lie than your original one. That being said, I can see an argument for getting the same lie for a replay when a stroke is cancelled but suspect that it is better to have the same procedure for all instances of relief.

 

[Swango1980]

Your medicine for putting your ball out of bounds is stroke and distance. The kind of lie you get from dropping a ball is not part of the "punishment". Relief other than in the teeing area or on the putting green is almost always by dropping a ball (unless you develop professional skills in getting your ball to roll out of relief areas) whether there is a penalty attached or not. It's a random matter and you might on another occasion get a better lie than your original one. That being said, I can see an argument for getting the same lie for a replay when a stroke is cancelled but suspect that it is better to have the same procedure for all instances of relief.

Although, to extend on this, this could imply that it is almost 50/50. In other words, sometimes you'll get a better lie, sometimes worse, it all balances out. However, in the case of a fairway bunker that would almost never be the case. Dropping in the bunker will cause a somewhat embedded ball, and likely turn a makeable shot into an impossible one.

The one time it would help is, if your original lie was plugged. Again, that would be interesting. You have a severely plugged lie, make a mess of your shot and need to play stroke and distance and play it again. You then take a drop, and can play a totally different shot. I always felt the purpose of taking stroke and distance was to effectively replay your last shot with the added penalty. Obviously this is not the case, due to the randomness of the drop (of course, in most cases outside a bunker, this randomness is usually going to be insignificant).

No arguments, the rule is the rule, end of story. Same for everyone. I just wonder is there an overall good reason to drop a ball rather than place it? Possibly because there is a concern that if golfers can place the ball, they may often be tempted to give themselves a better lie?

 

[jim8flog]

The height from which to drop a ball under the Rules has changed once in the last 60 years, in 2019. Don't hold your breath for another change.

Only if you were a contortionist capable of getting your hand to shoulder height as you dropped the ball behind your head

 

[rulie]

Only if you were a contortionist capable of getting your hand to shoulder height as you dropped the ball behind your head

IIRC, the previous drop was over your shoulder, not over your head. Further, here's what it says in the 1968 Rule book, "A ball to be dropped under the Rues or Local Rules shall be dropped by the player himself. He shall face the hole, stand erect, and drop the ball behind him over his shoulder." "Head" is not mentioned, other than facing the hole.

 

[Swango1980]

IIRC, the previous drop was over your shoulder, not over your head. Further, here's what it says in the 1968 Rule book, "A ball to be dropped under the Rues or Local Rules shall be dropped by the player himself. He shall face the hole, stand erect, and drop the ball behind him over his shoulder." "Head" is not mentioned, other than facing the hole.

I note it also doesn't mention shoulder height. Over your shoulder could be over your head as well. Seems flexible

 

[rulie]

I note it also doesn't mention shoulder height. Over your shoulder could be over your head as well. Seems flexible

But not mandatory to go over your head.