Aligning Ball on Fringe under Winter Rules (Model LR E-3)

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We are still playing with Winter Rule Model LR E-3 in place

One question - but first an observation when researching this online.

My understanding and practice of Model LR E-3 is is that I do not need to mark the position of my ball before lifting it...but that it is good practice to do so to avoid issues following placement. However I note that the AI Overview that I was provided with in respect of this MLR stated...

Key Aspects of Model Local Rule E-3:

• Where it Applies: Only when the ball lies in a "closely mown area" (grass cut to fairway height or less) in the general area.
• Procedure: The player must mark the spot of the ball before lifting it.

and it went on about placing

I believe that the Procedure above is wrong.

Anyway

Yesterday in a match my ball was on the fringe of a green. I wanted to set the alignment line on my ball to my putt line. I chose to mark the position of my ball and proceed under MLR E-3. I placed my ball close to the marker; I did not pick up my tee, but as the alignment line was not right I tweaked my ball (without lifting it). I know that I can do this on the green for as long as my ball position remains marked - indeed I can place my ball, tweak it before picking up my marker then mark position again and pick up my ball as many times as I so choose.

But I realized having placed my ball and picked up my marker that as I had proceeded under MLR E-3 - very different from rules that apply to when I'm on a green - that I was probably in breach of the MLR. I had forgotten that I was not on the green but on the fringe.

I putted out for a half, but raised this with my opponent (before we tee'd off on the next hole). He said he was happy with what I'd done and that we'd halved the hole.

I think I was right - in that I'd breached the rule...but that as my opponent was happy with the half and did not raise any concern prior to us teeing off I was OK.

 

[Slab]

Does seem like you at least stretched the procedure for placing a ball under the local rule

14.2b (2) How Ball Must Be Replaced. The ball must be replaced by setting it down by hand on the required spot and letting it go so that it stays on that spot.
If the player plays a ball that was replaced in a wrong way but on the required spot, the player gets one penalty stroke.

Your post reads like you did the first part in setting it down but didn't follow with the 2nd part by letting go

Your continued adjustment of the ball to align it isn't noted as a permitted action

 

[Slab]

Oh and I'd never ask a version of AI to tell me a rule, as always it takes its answer from one or more sources (perhaps even sponsored)
its about as accurate as wiki

 

[Neilds]

Does the rule say you cannot re-adjust the alignment once the ball is placed on the ground? I suspect it doesn’t so I think it is ok.
Not an expert.

 

[Imurg]

I was under the impression that, using PF, once you've let go of the ball, having placed it, that's it...you can't re-place it.......

 

[Slab]

Does the rule say you cannot re-adjust the alignment once the ball is placed on the ground? I suspect it doesn’t so I think it is ok.
Not an expert.

Yeah but being flippant, it also doesn’t say 'you cannot back-heel it towards the hole once the ball is placed on the ground'.. but we know you cant

 

[rulefan]

Does seem like you at least stretched the procedure for placing a ball under the local rule

14.2b (2) How Ball Must Be Replaced. The ball must be replaced by setting it down by hand on the required spot and letting it go so that it stays on that spot.
If the player plays a ball that was replaced in a wrong way but on the required spot, the player gets one penalty stroke.

Your post reads like you did the first part in setting it down but didn't follow with the 2nd part by letting go

Your continued adjustment of the ball to align it isn't noted as a permitted action

If you let go then the PL/LR is in force again so you can 'prefer' it again.

As it says:
After a ball has been placed and is in play under this Local Rule, if the player then proceeds under another Rule that provides relief, this Local Rule may be used again.

 

[Neilds]

Yeah but being flippant, it also doesn’t say 'you cannot back-heel it towards the hole once the ball is placed on the ground'.. but we know you cant

Does it not? Bugger, better stop doing that then

 

[Slab]

If you let go then the PL/LR is in force again so you can 'prefer' it again

I'm sure you don't mean I can then move it up to another 6 inches but that's kinda how it reads

 

[salfordlad]

Swingsit has it all correct in the OP, but there's some confusion in the discussion that followed. Once you have placed under preferred lies on the fringe (assuming that is the fairway cut height) the preferred lie relief is done and dusted and you cannot touch the ball again to align the line, doing so gets the one stroke penalty identified in 9.4b. But as the opponent chose to agree to the hole being tied no penalty applied.

 

[Steven Rules]

If you let go then the PL/LR is in force again so you can 'prefer' it again.

No. You certainly can't do that. You are missing the words in MLR E-3 where it says: 'the player may take free relief once'

The passage you quoted refers to taking relief under another rule.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks for the feedback and confirmation that my understanding of the situation was correct - that I had breached MLR E-3. Tbh I felt I could have insisted that I had breached the rule even though I wasn’t 100% certain, so there was some guilt in my not doing so - but I did recheck with my opponent that he was happy before we teed off. Interesting perhaps, but also perhaps not surprising, that my opponent didn’t know the rule and why I had breached it - i said I wasn’t 100% certain so gave him the opportunity to ask me to take the penalty shot and so for him to win the hole…if he had done so I’d have agreed.

I’ll add one clarification to what I did. After marking, lifting and placing I did not subsequently lift the ball again - though I did take my hand off it. My tee was still marking mu original ball position as I teturned to mu ball and turned the alignment line onto the line of mu putt - I didn’t move its position relative to its marked spit from where I’d first placed it.

 

[salfordlad]

I’ll add one clarification to what I did. After marking, lifting and placing I did not subsequently lift the ball again - though I did take my hand off it. My tee was still marking mu original ball position as I teturned to mu ball and turned the alignment line onto the line of mu putt - I didn’t move its position relative to its marked spit from where I’d first placed it.

As I noted earlier, deliberately touching the ball after relief was completed (hand taken off) gets the Rule 9.4b penalty. Doing the aligning before release would avoid this penalty.

Your observations in this paragraph don't have direct relevance to the ruling but have a look at Rule 14.1 first paragraph, even rotating only (not 'moving' it from the spot) is considered to be a "lift" for the purpose of this rule - which means if you are operating under a rule that permits a lift and replace (eg on the putting green or MLR E-2) and you are only planning to rotate, you still need to mark the ball before doing so or you would be in breach of Rule 14.1.

 

[jim8flog]

The requirement to mark the position of a ball when it is being moved to another place went out of the rule book with all the major changes.

Where I play the local rule is that once you have placed the ball and it is at rest it is in play so you cannot adjust it's position for a better alignment with markings on the ball.

The fact you a have put a marker down is irrelevant.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As I noted earlier, deliberately touching the ball after relief was completed (hand taken off) gets the Rule 9.4b penalty. Doing the aligning before release would avoid this penalty.

Your observations in this paragraph don't have direct relevance to the ruling but have a look at Rule 14.1 first paragraph, even rotating only (not 'moving' it from the spot) is considered to be a "lift" for the purpose of this rule - which means if you are operating under a rule that permits a lift and replace (eg on the putting green or MLR E-2) and you are only planning to rotate, you still need to mark the ball before doing so or you would be in breach of Rule 14.1.

OK. But as I'm operating under rule MLR E-3 when on the fringe I don't have to mark my ball position to pick and place. Indeed in my situation on the fringe I don't actually have to lift my ball, I could simply rotate it - though in truth that's unlikely as the alignment line is most likely going to be in the wrong place. Point that's been made is that under MLR E-3 as soon as I take my hand off the ball - whether I've lifted it or not - then that's it. I can't touch it again. Under rule MLR E-2 I must mark ball position and replace in that spot...and similarly once done once then that's it.

 

[rulefan]

No. You certainly can't do that. You are missing the words in MLR E-3 where it says: 'the player may take free relief once'

The passage you quoted refers to taking relief under another rule.

After a ball has been placed and is in play under this Local Rule, if the player then proceeds under another Rule that provides relief, this Local Rule may be used again.
So these words mean that 'relief for another reason' has to be taken before PL can be invoked again?

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes. Precisely.

A very common example to illustrate this would be a player taking a preferred lie under MLR E-3 and placing the ball in a new spot that now has interference from an abnormal course condition. The player then takes relief from the abnormal course condition under 16.1b. Once the 16.1b relief procedure is complete, and the ball is back in play, we now have a new situation and the player is entitled to invoke MLR E-3 again (assuming the other E-3 prerequisites are met) and take another preferred lie.

 

[salfordlad]

OK. But as I'm operating under rule MLR E-3 when on the fringe I don't have to mark my ball position to pick and place. Indeed in my situation on the fringe I don't actually have to lift my ball, I could simply rotate it - though in truth that's unlikely as the alignment line is most likely going to be in the wrong place. Point that's been made is that under MLR E-3 as soon as I take my hand off the ball - whether I've lifted it or not - then that's it. I can't touch it again. Under rule MLR E-2 I must mark ball position and replace in that spot...and similarly once done once then that's it.

No issue here, I had merely made broader reference to where the rules have something explicit to say about "rotating", it was not directly relevant to your OP.

 

[salfordlad]

After a ball has been placed and is in play under this Local Rule, if the player then proceeds under another Rule that provides relief, this Local Rule may be used again.
So these words mean that 'relief for another reason' has to be taken before PL can be invoked again?

Yes, as Steven notes.

Another way to explain when preferred lies cannot be taken again is if the ball at rest subsequently moves due to: natural forces; action of the player or their caddie (other than proceeding under a relief rule); action of the opponent or their caddie; or an outside influence.

 

[DickInShorts]

As it was matchplay your opponent is not obliged to impose a penalty for a rule breach.
Any agreement to break rules in advance however is definitely verboten