AGM changes

[Green Bay Hacker]

Speaking to a work colleague I found it hard to take in what is going at their club.

Last year a 'manager' was taken on at their club. In their view, the general membership do not know the circumstances of the appointment other than he was a member appointed by the captain.

At their AGM the membership were informed that the 'manager' had brought in a rule that no questions were allowed in respect of the accounts that were produced. Those accounts showed VAT and Auto Enrolment penalties of almost £4,500.

I have no idea what the club's constitution says or the role that the committee played in any of the decisions but it seems a bit strange to me. The 'manager' is apparently overbearing and does not take kindly to anyone questioning his decisions.

 

[IanM]

Is this a member owned or proprietary club?

If the former, surely they can’t just do that. If the latter, they can do what they like, but it’s at the risk of alienating the “customers!”

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Is it a member's club? If so the constitution is king and no one can override that. Probably time to dig it out and get reading.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Sounds like whoever is in control of the clubs finances have incurred substantial fines through simply not knowing what they should be doing.

Questions? You bet
Ask away

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

Is this a member owned or proprietary club?

If the former, surely they can’t just do that. If the latter, they can do what they like, but it’s at the risk of alienating the “customers!”

It is a members club.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It is a members club.

Time for the members to flex their muscles then. They need to get hold of the club constitution, read it correctly and work within it.

 

[Hobbit]

Sounds like its time for an EGM. Bear in mind, only one item can be listed for an EGM. The question posed needs to be thoughtfully constructed otherwise whoever runs the EGM can call an additional item, "out of order." If there is a financial irregularity there may be a need to involve the Police, but bear in mind incompetence doesn't mean that someone is fiddling the books.

Might be worth looking at the constitution to see if members can benefit from being employed by the club. Although many clubs have changed their rules in recent years, once upon a time many clubs had a rule that no member can benefit financially from a club, including being employed by the club.

 

[IanM]

Sounds like its time for an EGM.

Oh crikey yes.... someone has cocked up and you lot can’t question it?

Get reading those rules...

 

[chrisd]

I wonder whether the manager can make rules. At mine, rules have to be voted on at an AGM or EGM

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

I wonder whether the manager can make rules. At mine, rules have to be voted on at an AGM or EGM

That was exactly what my first question was. There seems to be an air of mystery surrounding everything he does and the general membership are in the dark. Apparently he is not a person who can be approached for answers and the committee are silent.

 

[Sweep]

If it is a members club, then basically the Manager has ruled that the membership cannot raise questions about their own money.
Most rules have to be ratified at an AGM by a majority of the members ( the size of the required majority will be determined in the rules).
It is highly unlikely the committee or manager are allowed to make such a rule under the existing rules of the club. If the rules permit it, then the rules need changing and quick.
I cannot think of a single club where if questions on the accounts were not allowed at an AGM then the Manager or indeed the committee would still be in office at the end of the meeting.
I cannot think of a single reason why questions on the accounts are not allowed other than to cover up incompetence or fraud.
It is the members money. The AGM will have an item on the agenda to ratify and accept the accounts. It is one of the main purposes of the meeting. Without the opportunity to ask questions, the membership should absolutely vote against accepting and ratifying the accounts.
If the club is or is covered by a limited company this is more serious. Without the membership ratifying the accounts the directors (probably the committee) will have to sign off the accounts without the consent of the membership (providing the membership didn’t vote to ratify the accounts) in order for them to be lodged at Companies House, as they must be. No director in his right mind is going to do that.
If the AGM has passed then an EGM should be called ASAP. They may need a number of signatories to trigger an EGM.

If this is a members club then simply put, in all my years of dealing with golf club matters I have never heard of anything so serious or frankly incredible.

However, if it’s a proprietary club, the accounts have nothing to do with the members and all the VAT and enrolment stuff is nothing to do with them either. In that regard I see no reason why the membership or manager would have even seen the accounts.

 

[chrisd]

That was exactly what my first question was. There seems to be an air of mystery surrounding everything he does and the general membership are in the dark. Apparently he is not a person who can be approached for answers and the committee are silent.

He is employed by you, the members,he isn't entitled to stay silent at an AGM

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

If it is a members club, then basically the Manager has ruled that the membership cannot raise questions about their own money.
Most rules have to be ratified at an AGM by a majority of the members ( the size of the required majority will be determined in the rules).
It is highly unlikely the committee or manager are allowed to make such a rule under the existing rules of the club. If the rules permit it, then the rules need changing and quick.
I cannot think of a single club where if questions on the accounts were not allowed at an AGM then the Manager or indeed the committee would still be in office at the end of the meeting.
I cannot think of a single reason why questions on the accounts are not allowed other than to cover up incompetence or fraud.
It is the members money. The AGM will have an item on the agenda to ratify and accept the accounts. It is one of the main purposes of the meeting. Without the opportunity to ask questions, the membership should absolutely vote against accepting and ratifying the accounts.
If the club is or is covered by a limited company this is more serious. Without the membership ratifying the accounts the directors (probably the committee) will have to sign off the accounts without the consent of the membership (providing the membership didn’t vote to ratify the accounts) in order for them to be lodged at Companies House, as they must be. No director in his right mind is going to do that.
If the AGM has passed then an EGM should be called ASAP. They may need a number of signatories to trigger an EGM.

If this is a members club then simply put, in all my years of dealing with golf club matters I have never heard of anything so serious or frankly incredible.

However, if it’s a proprietary club, the accounts have nothing to do with the members and all the VAT and enrolment stuff is nothing to do with them either. In that regard I see no reason why the membership or manager would have even seen the accounts.

It is defo a members club and the accounts handed out at the AGM. To say I was surprised at what I was told was a slight understatement.

Just checked and it is registered as a Ltd Co and there have been a considerable amount (in relative terms) of resignations and appointments registered at Companies House in the last couple of weeks. This may just be a coincidence.

Apparently, this years captain is not a fan of his (unsurprisingly) so things may change. This begs another question, why do the captains seem to have so much sway at this club?

Lots of good points brought up here and I will try and get some more info when I next speak to my colleague.

 

[Sweep]

It’s quite common for a number of changes in the board of directors to take place following a club agm if the club is a limited company. In these cases if you are elected to the committee you are usually elected by the members of the limited company (the club members) to the board. Committee members standing down from the committee will automatically resign from the board of directors.
The influence a Captain enjoys differs from club to club. In some clubs who are limited companies the Captain acts as the Chief Executive. In others not, though in most he will at least be a director by virtue of the fact that he is an elected committee member. We can’t be sure but it sounds like this club may have chosen to employ a manager who acts as Chief Executive. Is he a director of the limited company? Even if he is, it still does not entitle him to impose such a rule on his own.
If it is the committee members who make up the board of directors then they really cannot hide behind the manager on this. The directors all have a vote at board (committee) level. They should never have allowed it. Indeed if I had served on such a committee and this had been decided under any circumstances I would have resigned with immediate effect. There is no way any responsible or like minded officer with his / her members interests at heart would have allowed this to happen.

A copy of the rules are needed quickly. Any member cannot be denied access to these rules - well I say that but who knows? Until now I had never heard of a club where members weren’t allowed questions on the accounts.

Sometimes the rules may be found in the members section of a club website but if not should be available from the club office.

 

[chrisd]

I work at a Club (not a golf club) as their book keeper, and at an AGM I present the accounts and our Accountant/Auditors are there too, just in case there are questions to be answered on the tax issues etc. At the very least we would take a question and promise to come back with an answer if research was needed.

It would appear that the guy is either hiding something or is arrogant in the extreme, that he's too important to be questioned on his handling of YOUR money - it needs challenging and quickly.

 

[jim8flog]

Is it a Limited Company (ours is) then every shareholder has right to question the accounts.

All appropriate members are shareholders at our club.

I would have also thought that it would contravene the legislation if no questions could be asked.

My understanding is that any rules changes have to be approved by EGM.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

It is defo a members club and the accounts handed out at the AGM. To say I was surprised at what I was told was a slight understatement.

Just checked and it is registered as a Ltd Co and there have been a considerable amount (in relative terms) of resignations and appointments registered at Companies House in the last couple of weeks. This may just be a coincidence.

Apparently, this years captain is not a fan of his (unsurprisingly) so things may change. This begs another question, why do the captains seem to have so much sway at this club?

Lots of good points brought up here and I will try and get some more info when I next speak to my colleague.

I would be asking questions, and continue to ask questions irrespective of whether this manager likes it or not and be ensuring an EGM is called urgently. Make sure it's constructed in a manner to cover the salient point required. At the meeting make sure it's run in line with the constitution rules and make sure you get the result you want. It sounds very iffy that there are these costs incurred and no-one appears to be accountable. That cannot be right

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

I would be asking questions, and continue to ask questions irrespective of whether this manager likes it or not and be ensuring an EGM is called urgently. Make sure it's constructed in a manner to cover the salient point required. At the meeting make sure it's run in line with the constitution rules and make sure you get the result you want. It sounds very iffy that there are these costs incurred and no-one appears to be accountable. That cannot be right

It stunk to me, that's why I started this thread.

It will be next week before I can get any further details but my source does have a family member who is employed by the club.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

It stunk to me, that's why I started this thread.

It will be next week before I can get any further details but my source does have a family member who is employed by the club.

I'd advise your sources family member to be careful. Very toxic atmosphere clearly brewing and the new manager likely to be more paranoid than Trump now it's broken and people are wanting answers and so will be looking to cover tracks and for any "leaks"