A difficult drop

chrisd

chrisd

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I played in a 4bbb match the other day and just want to check that we didn't miss any rules for what happened

It was a short par 3 with a hugely steep incline to one side that was full of vegitation. I hit my ball in that direction and generally balls are lost up there but occasionally they roll down to green level.

When we got to the green I saw a ball some distance up the bank but couldn't identify it. My playing partner managed to recover it with his ball retriever and it was my ball. I said that I could take a drop on the bottom of the banking but knowing that the ball would roll some extra club lengths away and then I'd be obliged to place it on the banking, which, in fact I did and miraculously it stayed there.

I then perched on the steep incline, chipped and the ball hit the pin and stopped pretty dead and was unlucky not to go in. Our opponents putted in to win the hole at that point, but said, that had my ball gone in for a half, or win, they would have claimed the hole as my playing partner can't collect my ball and also he didn't mark its original position (although all 4 of us knew exactly where it was and it wouldn't have been possible to reach where it was by hand) but other than that we had proceeded correctly with the drops etc

Any views?
 
chrisd said:
I played in a 4bbb match the other day and just want to check that we didn't miss any rules for what happened

It was a short par 3 with a hugely steep incline to one side that was full of vegitation. I hit my ball in that direction and generally balls are lost up there but occasionally they roll down to green level.

When we got to the green I saw a ball some distance up the bank but couldn't identify it. My playing partner managed to recover it with his ball retriever and it was my ball. I said that I could take a drop on the bottom of the banking but knowing that the ball would roll some extra club lengths away and then I'd be obliged to place it on the banking, which, in fact I did and miraculously it stayed there.

I then perched on the steep incline, chipped and the ball hit the pin and stopped pretty dead and was unlucky not to go in. Our opponents putted in to win the hole at that point, but said, that had my ball gone in for a half, or win, they would have claimed the hole as my playing partner can't collect my ball and also he didn't mark its original position (although all 4 of us knew exactly where it was and it wouldn't have been possible to reach where it was by hand) but other than that we had proceeded correctly with the drops etc

Any views?
Click to expand...

When your ball is on the bank is it ALWAYS - 100% always - possible to get into the vegetation without risking injury to mark the position of a ball that has been spotted? If the answer is 'No it isn't' then I'd say you must be able to retrieve a ball for identification purposes without having to mark it - and no penalty incurred.
 
Nothing to stop your partner recovering the ball but you must identify it.

There is no requirement to mark the position but you need to demonstrate that your drop is within the two clublengths.

Question: Did you attempt to drop before you placed?
 
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As usual (with Chris's quesrions) there's more than one issue!

1. You must mark a ball being lifted for identification purposes, and advising your opponents or fellow competitors before touching it. This is because you are normally playing it from the replaced position!
2. If you are recovering a ball to proceed under a rule that don't require you to replace it (28 being one) then you should make this clear before doing so. You are not required to mark it and anyone can pick it up.
3. Having agreed the parameters of your dropping area with your opponents you place after the second time it lands legally but rolls illegally ( as a simple explanation!)
4. Once you had chipped they are deemed to have elected to ignore the breach they thought you had made and any subsequent claim would fail on being timely (if it came to me!)
 
To try and answer the various questions

SILH - there was no way to retrieve it other than by using a ball retriever, embankment was approaching 90* and full of shrubs, brambles and loads of other stuff

Rosecott - I attempted 2 drops and then we placed it on the spot it was dropped and bounced off on the 2nd drop. One of my opponents measured the 2 club lengths with his driver

Duncan - we could only have replaced it with the ball scoop and it was going to be a drop under penalty. Our opponents were involved in the discussions as soon as a possible sighting of my ball was made. Also I told them that I was proceeding under the 2 club length option under penalty

I hope that this makes things clearer
 
chrisd said:
To try and answer the various questions

SILH - there was no way to retrieve it other than by using a ball retriever, embankment was approaching 90* and full of shrubs, brambles and loads of other stuff

Rosecott - I attempted 2 drops and then we placed it on the spot it was dropped and bounced off on the 2nd drop. One of my opponents measured the 2 club lengths with his driver

Duncan - we could only have replaced it with the ball scoop and it was going to be a drop under penalty. Our opponents were involved in the discussions as soon as a possible sighting of my ball was made. Also I told them that I was proceeding under the 2 club length option under penalty

I hope that this makes things clearer
Click to expand...

So not only would their claim as stated have failed on the timely requirement but you complied with all the rules required.

I only included the reason for marking etc for overall clarity Chris - it seems to have become necessary for the wrong rasons on here at times! No 2 covered your specific situation and you complied ☺
 
duncan mackie said:
So not only would their claim as stated have failed on the timely requirement but you complied with all the rules required.

I only included the reason for marking etc for overall clarity Chris - it seems to have become necessary for the wrong rasons on here at times! No 2 covered your specific situation and you complied ☺
Click to expand...

Thanks Duncan- one of the guys took the pee when I said that I'm fairly good on rules and thought I'd acted correctly, so I've emailed him to let him know that I did nothing against the rules.
 
Duncan's answer and your clarification answer my question perfectly. I can't think of a situation where I can't get to my ball to mark it before picking it up, but would want to keep open playing it from where it lay as an option.
 
In my case it was lodged in undergrowth about 6 feet up a cliff face. There was no point in keeping the option to play it where it lay as Chris Bonnington couldn't have climbed up to where it was.
 
chrisd said:
Lodged in the undergrowth on a virtual cliff face
Click to expand...

On another note, you may have already lost the match because your partner had a ball retriever. ;).

Rule 66-1: Any player carrying a chipper, hybrid wedge or ball retriever must do a walk of shame down the first fairway with their trousers round their ankles. Player may opt to play first hole using only the prohibited item.

Penalty for breech of Rule 66-1

Stroke play: 4 stroke penalty (10 strokes if carrying two or more prohibited items)

Match Play: Loss of all holes.
 
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palindromicbob said:
On another note, you may have already lost the match because your partner had a ball retriever. ;).

Rule 66-1: Any player carrying a chipper, hybrid wedge or ball retriever must do a walk of shame down the first fairway with their trousers round their ankles. Player may opt to play first hole using only the prohibited item.

Penalty for breech of Rule 66-1

Stroke play: 4 stroke penalty (10 strokes if carrying two or more prohibited items)

Match Play: Loss of all holes.
Click to expand...

You'd better let Smiffy know ..... have you seen his chipper postings?
 
duncan mackie said:
As usual (with Chris's quesrions) there's more than one issue!

1. You must mark a ball being lifted for identification purposes, and advising your opponents or fellow competitors before touching it. This is because you are normally playing it from the replaced position!
2. If you are recovering a ball to proceed under a rule that don't require you to replace it (28 being one) then you should make this clear before doing so. You are not required to mark it and anyone can pick it up.
3. Having agreed the parameters of your dropping area with your opponents you place after the second time it lands legally but rolls illegally ( as a simple explanation!)
4. Once you had chipped they are deemed to have elected to ignore the breach they thought you had made and any subsequent claim would fail on being timely (if it came to me!)
Click to expand...

4 above was written more with my heart than my head and is factually incorrect.

they can make a timely claim before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground; with the only other relevant element being if they had agreed the procedure that was followed at the time (in which case there's no valid claim but this was clearly not the case here).

thought I had better tidy up!
 
duncan mackie said:
4 above was written more with my heart than my head and is factually incorrect.

they can make a timely claim before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground; with the only other relevant element being if they had agreed the procedure that was followed at the time (in which case there's no valid claim but this was clearly not the case here).

thought I had better tidy up!
Click to expand...

You know that on this forum you're not allowed to admit you were wrong. You need to stubbornly stick to your original view.
 
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