4:15hr is actually a pretty reasonable pace of play for our group

[Slab]

To qualify the post title I’m talking about mixed ability players on a busy but not overloaded course... however 4:15hr is 25 minutes longer than the R&A state and about an hour longer than we’re told it used to take in the good ol’ days!

Under the above conditions 4:00 hours is a very good pace and 4:30 is the limit of what’s acceptable but 4:30 is also the most common pace for a round and now we're 40 minutes ‘over’

Let’s assume the good ol’ days are long gone but is the R&A maximum of 3:50 for a fourball a bit of a red herring giving rise to false expectations of the time it takes to play golf as it is today?

I’m sure the 3:50 figure is the result of analysis but is it representative of the average field of fourballs or is it likely to be the pace for a single fourball on a pretty empty course rather than the pace for a field of fourballs

3:50 means a low average of just 11 minutes per hole and under 2 minutes in-between holes and seems a tough pace on paper... but that’s a pretty high standard of FIR for up to sixty players and doesn’t appear to leave much (if any) scope for delays, lost ball searches etc

I said sixty players because of course in order for the second and subsequent fourball to get round in 3:50 all the groups in front have to get round in 3:50 too (I’m not really interested in one fourball going round in 4hrs if it means steam-rollering through the field with an I’m alright Jack mentality)

No desire to play speed golf but still enjoy some banter (obviously not when able to play) and there’s 10 minute tee spacing already used on a course of championship length & standard

So how/can we, get round times down?
(Ideally looking for some inventive suggestions rather than the ‘leave clubs next to exit of green’ type and would prefer to steer clear of punitive measures as like most golfers we play for fun)

 

[woody69]

Perhaps I am in the minority, but I don't understand the obsession with getting round as quickly as possible and 4hrs 15 is perfectly acceptable to me. If someone wants to go through, I always let them. I don't dawdle and try to always keep up with the group in front, but I don't run either. I enjoy my golf, out on the course in the fresh air and the socialising between shots. At the same time, I've thought about my shot and I'm ready to go when it's my turn.

It usually takes about 4 hours for me in a 4 ball on "most courses" and I don't think that is "slow". I agree that waiting around on every tee, or for every shot is tiresome, but it so rarely happens.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Rounds at our place rarely take more than 4 hours

 

[gazrow]

Perhaps I am in the minority, but I don't understand the obsession with getting round as quickly as possible and 4hrs 15 is perfectly acceptable to me. If someone wants to go through, I always let them. I don't dawdle and try to always keep up with the group in front, but I don't run either. I enjoy my golf, out on the course in the fresh air and the socialising between shots. At the same time, I've thought about my shot and I'm ready to go when it's my turn.

It usually takes about 4 hours for me in a 4 ball on "most courses" and I don't think that is "slow". I agree that waiting around on every tee, or for every shot is tiresome, but it so rarely happens.

+ 1

 

[SGC001]

To qualify the post title I’m talking about mixed ability players on a busy but not overloaded course... however 4:15hr is 25 minutes longer than the R&A state and about an hour longer than we’re told it used to take in the good ol’ days!

Under the above conditions 4:00 hours is a very good pace and 4:30 is the limit of what’s acceptable but 4:30 is also the most common pace for a round and now we're 40 minutes ‘over’

Let’s assume the good ol’ days are long gone but is the R&A maximum of 3:50 for a fourball a bit of a red herring giving rise to false expectations of the time it takes to play golf as it is today?

I’m sure the 3:50 figure is the result of analysis but is it representative of the average field of fourballs or is it likely to be the pace for a single fourball on a pretty empty course rather than the pace for a field of fourballs

3:50 means a low average of just 11 minutes per hole and under 2 minutes in-between holes and seems a tough pace on paper... but that’s a pretty high standard of FIR for up to sixty players and doesn’t appear to leave much (if any) scope for delays, lost ball searches etc

I said sixty players because of course in order for the second and subsequent fourball to get round in 3:50 all the groups in front have to get round in 3:50 too (I’m not really interested in one fourball going round in 4hrs if it means steam-rollering through the field with an I’m alright Jack mentality)

No desire to play speed golf but still enjoy some banter (obviously not when able to play) and there’s 10 minute tee spacing already used on a course of championship length & standard

So how/can we, get round times down?
(Ideally looking for some inventive suggestions rather than the ‘leave clubs next to exit of green’ type and would prefer to steer clear of punitive measures as like most golfers we play for fun)

It really is about the basics for instance you mention lost ball searches adding time call people through as soon as it becomes evident you won't easily find it.

Also I don't consider 3 hours 50 to be unreasonable to achieve except in the sense of how long it takes, I can remember strolling round in a 3 ball in around 2 hours.

Apart from basic golfing etiquette in terms of been ready to play when it's your turn and leaving equipment in appropriate places areas such as course set up (pin positions, severity of course set up, rough etc: ), spotters in certain areas can impact time.

You say steer clear of punitive measures, but a fairly reasonable one an old club of mine did was to monitor groups, any above 4 hours and over 12 mins behind the group ahead got a bad time. 3 bad times and you went to the back of the field. It helped to identify slow players, but meant that if you were unlucky enough to be drawn with one, it was only 1 bad time and no penalty.

People need to be educated and made aware that they are slow and need to adjust what they do in line with showing consideration for others including letting faster groups through which doesn't happen enough imo.

 

[Birchy]

One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.

 

[dufferman]

I agree that golf isn't a sprint. Playing in less than 4 hours might be the dream for many, but I play to enjoy company with friends and family, not to boast about how quick I can play a round.

I agree that there are things like being ready to hit a shot that can help - but, if all 4 people are ready to hit there shot & 2 of those 4 hook / slice the ball and lose sight of it, you're in a worse place than if all 4 were keeping an eye so there's at least one person who's able to see where the stray ball goes. It's just an example, and I'm sure there are 100's of for and against's, I'm just saying it isn't always black & white.

What I find a problem are the morons who decide to play up within an inch of you when there is nowhere to go. If there's a 1 hole gap, play on through us, no problems. But when we're ALL waiting on the tee for 10 minutes, don't play up on the green then moment the flag stick is back in the hole, or play your tee shot the second we've hit our 2nd shot. We've had some really bad experiences over the (few) rounds this winter of idiots playing up without a shout. All because they want to get to the hole as quickly as possible, just to sit for 10 minutes at the next tee whilst the people 2 groups ahead are still in sight on the fairway!!

 

[G_Mulligan]

One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.

That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play.

 

[davidy233]

One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.

Agree with this to an extent though not the having gone through pre-shot bit - amount of people who stand (in the approved position) and watch fellow players hit their shot before walking to their own ball to get ready to play their shot is unreal - when you walk off the tee walk to your ball, get your distance worked out and be ready to go when it's your turn.

Don't think I've ever played a four hour plus competition round in Scotland - could be five hours when I was down South

 

[Birchy]

That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play.

It doesn't have to at all. Sometimes maybe if you are right in the way of another player but you can be ready to play your shot most of the time.

 

[srixon 1]

One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.

That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play.

If it is a gusting wind it is not always possible to pick which club you are going to use too far in advance. And I am sure that for some players, removing the club from their bag is part of their pre-shot routine anyway.

 

[Birchy]

If it is a gusting wind it is not always possible to pick which club you are going to use too far in advance. And I am sure that for some players, removing the club from their bag is part of their pre-shot routine anyway.

I will let you off if its blowing a hoolie I meant just as a general rule in average conditions. Although average conditions are getting worse by the week :rofl:

 

[jimbob.someroo]

The hard part is educating people that are slow and holding up the field without offending people - which is neigh on impossible.

Nobody want's to be called slow on the course, and everybody has a selfish "it's not me, it's the others in the group" type attitude, but the fact is, if you've lost a hole or more on the group in front, you're negatively affecting the whole field.

There needs to be less of a stigma for those that are slow, so that they can simply wave people through, or get a move on without getting all defensive.

And people need to stop being idiots. A guys two groups in front of us holding up the entire course yesterday had played 6 and was still 300+ yards out in the stableford but insisted on taking the rest of his 10+ shots - not picking his ball up when he could no longer score or waving the two groups stood on the tee through.

 

[BoadieBroadus]

i'll give you that some players tend to be a bit more ponderous than others but unless a full four ball is really taking a long time over each shot, pace of play in the groups I play in is almost always determined by the numbers of hard to find shots that are hit by the players.

our course is tight, so there tends to be a fair amount of looking in trees, and it is etiquette that all players should help in the search for a ball. if you have two wayward players having bad days, no amount of being ready to play your own shot is going to help make up the time. if all 4 are helping look for a ball fo 3 minutes on one hole, then again on the next and then again 2 holes later, your group will be slow, maybe not quite slow enough to warrant the group behind being called through, but still slow.

the guys I play with are generally good "ready" players, but hold ups on the course occur because of the regularity of "hard to find" golf balls.

does anyone really call a group through because you think it might take a couple of minutes to find one ball when the other three are on the fairway?

 

[Slab]

Thanks for replies so far

I really have no wish for playing as quickly as possible but if the course say 4:10 and I'm in a group at 4:35 with only a couple of waits on tee shots then we're doing something wrong or the pace is set wrongly for that day

I do wonder if pace of play of a course is always set by the correct course evaluation or perhaps just based on whats required/desired

Old course @ 3:57 yet Kingsbarns @ 4:40 although similar length courses off the equivalent yellows

 

[G_Mulligan]

It doesn't have to at all. Sometimes maybe if you are right in the way of another player but you can be ready to play your shot most of the time.

what if you go through your routine off to the side of someone when you are not in their eye line, which would be rare if they are before you, but you still have to wait for them to take your shot. The whole point of the PSR is to prepare yourself to hit a shot. You can't do it and then stand over the ball for any length of time or it is pointless. Couple of practice swings visualising the shot, find your target, line up correctly and address the ball. Maybe a waggle or two and a shuffle of the feet then go. Takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute at the most.

As dufferman said, what if your playing partner asks if you saw it? No sorry I was going through my own routine ready to play my own shot. Not good etiquette for me. I agree pre shot routines can take too long, players taking an age, and not doing the stuff I mentioned above (wind, club etc.) before there shot. But I don't think a regular PSR is responsible for slow play in fact hitting the ball better, more often should speed things up not slow it down overall.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I agree that golf isn't a sprint. Playing in less than 4 hours might be the dream for many, but I play to enjoy company with friends and family, not to boast about how quick I can play a round.

I agree that there are things like being ready to hit a shot that can help - but, if all 4 people are ready to hit there shot & 2 of those 4 hook / slice the ball and lose sight of it, you're in a worse place than if all 4 were keeping an eye so there's at least one person who's able to see where the stray ball goes. It's just an example, and I'm sure there are 100's of for and against's, I'm just saying it isn't always black & white.

What I find a problem are the morons who decide to play up within an inch of you when there is nowhere to go. If there's a 1 hole gap, play on through us, no problems. But when we're ALL waiting on the tee for 10 minutes, don't play up on the green then moment the flag stick is back in the hole, or play your tee shot the second we've hit our 2nd shot. We've had some really bad experiences over the (few) rounds this winter of idiots playing up without a shout. All because they want to get to the hole as quickly as possible, just to sit for 10 minutes at the next tee whilst the people 2 groups ahead are still in sight on the fairway!!

It's not a dream or a sprint, it just shouldn't need to take longer than 4 hours to play a round if golf

 

[HawkeyeMS]

That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play.

Pre-shot routines are one of the causes of slow play, and aren't necessary...







...runs for cover

 

[Slab]

It's not a dream or a sprint, it just shouldn't need to take longer than 4 hours to play a round if golf

Hi, to help put this in context can you say what the stated expected round time is during the summer at your course? (doesn't need to be specific for play on a particular day)

 

[jimbob.someroo]

does anyone really call a group through because you think it might take a couple of minutes to find one ball when the other three are on the fairway?

Not saying this to be an arse, but yes. If three of us find our balls but the other is obviously struggling and could be looking a while, and there's a group on the tee, we'll wave them down. If they find it whilst we're hitting, we'll carry on up and likely stay ahead of them. If we still can't find it, or we find it as they arrive at their seconds, let them through.

What's the alternative? Not let them through, then the guy loses his ball, then has to go back to the tee and is walking back up whilst they're hitting down? That's no good for anyone. Let them hit down and let them through 'on the move'. Speeds up play for everyone.