3 off the tee

[backwoodsman]

From the other thread, the R&A say that provisional may be declared after it's dropped as long as before it's hit. Accepted.

But the thread threw up another issue in my mind about which I hope you may be able to clarify - ie playing 3 off the tee. In this instance, nothing to do with it being provisional - it's a scenario where the original ball is lost or is OOB.

You are back (or still) on the tee about to play your third shot. You are entitled to drop the ball, or place it (on a tee if you choose). So when does it become the ball in play? As soon as you drop/place/tee it? Or when you make a stroke at it? If the latter, what rule(s) make it so?

Ta

 

[Foxholer]

When you make a Stroke at it.

Until then, it can move (as in fall off the tee), or you can even change it if you prefer another.

27-1 is the applicable Rule.

 

[backwoodsman]

When you make a Stroke at it.

Until then, you can move it around on the tee, or even change it if you prefer another.

Ta.

But the second half of the question asked what rule(s) make that so? Because Rule 20-4 says its in play when it's placed or dropped. So presumably there is some other rule that overrides 20-4?

 

[Foxholer]

Just realised that.

But you beat me to my edit. Note I've changed the text about moving it around on the tee! Not certain and 27-1 states 'as near as possible'

 

[atticusfinch]

Anytime you are allowed or required to replay a stroke from the teeing ground, all the rules relating to a first stroke from the tee apply to the penalty stroke. You may play from a tee or not and the ball is not in play until you make a stroke at it. Rule 11.

 

[atticusfinch]

Just realised that.

But you beat me to my edit. Note I've changed the text about moving it around on the tee! Not certain and 27-1 states 'as near as possible'

Rule 11 overrides.

 

[Foxholer]

Rule 11 overrides.

I suspect so. But can you point me to where that's specified?

 

[atticusfinch]

It's not specified, it is contained in the language of the rule and related decisions. See 11-3/3 for example.

 

[backwoodsman]

Anytime you are allowed or required to replay a stroke from the teeing ground, all the rules relating to a first stroke from the tee apply to the penalty stroke. You may play from a tee or not and the ball is not in play until you make a stroke at it. Rule 11.

Ta for that. Looking at rule 11 made me see decision 11-3/3 which clarifies the situation which says ball is not in play due to definition of ball in play.

As a subsidiary then. You play your tee shot, which hits a something and ricochets back onto the teeing ground. Presumably that must be played as it lies?

 

[Foxholer]

It's not specified, it is contained in the language of the rule and related decisions. See 11-3/3 for example.

I'd checked that one and thought it was not relevant to the question - as 'Ball in Play' was what that one is all about. We did that, pretty much to death, in the triggering thread!

From memory, there have even been some queries about whether ball has to be teed at same height - being 'as near as possible'. Can't remember the outcome.

However, because 27-1 actually specifies 'as near as possible', with no exceptions, I'd have to see a specific exception or relevant Decision to change from my 'read the relevant Rule literally' approach.

Of course, that makes it a bit awkward if Driver off high tee went OB, then player decided to use something else for 3rd shot - part of the reason why I expect more freedom than 'as near as possible' when played from Teeing Ground.

Colin? Rulefan?

 

[Foxholer]

As a subsidiary then. You play your tee shot, which hits a something and ricochets back onto the teeing ground. Presumably that must be played as it lies?

Ha!

Yes, first part of 11-1 states 'When a player is putting a ball into play.....'

 

[Fyldewhite]

I'd checked that one and thought it was not relevant to the question - as 'Ball in Play' was what that one is all about. We did that, pretty much to death, in the triggering thread!

From memory, there have even been some queries about whether ball has to be teed at same height - being 'as near as possible'. Can't remember the outcome.

However, because 27-1 actually specifies 'as near as possible', with no exceptions, I'd have to see a specific exception or relevant Decision to change from my 'read the relevant Rule literally' approach.

Of course, that makes it a bit awkward if Driver off high tee went OB, then player decided to use something else for 3rd shot - part of the reason why I expect more freedom than 'as near as possible' when played from Teeing Ground.

Colin? Rulefan?

Doesn't the cross reference to Rule 20-5 cover it?

 

[atticusfinch]

Rule 11-1 says : When a player is putting a ball into play from the teeing ground, it must be played from within the teeing ground and from the surface of the ground or from a conforming tee (see Appendix IV) in or on the surface of the ground. When you take relief under stroke and distance for a lost tee shot you are "putting a ball into play from the teeing ground." The concerns in rule 27 about dropping as near as possible to the last shot do not apply because you are putting a ball in play from the teeing ground. Thus rule 11, and only 11, governs what you can do.

This rule applies whether it is the first stroke on a hole or a stroke and distance penalty shot. It makes no exceptions for other rules or subsequent shots. Any ball put into play from the teeing ground is treated the same. You do not have to tee it at the same height or from the same place within the teeing ground. Any options you have with the first ball you have with subsequent balls. You know this is so, because there is nothing to the contrary in the rule. The rules are fundamentally rules of exclusion. If they do not prohibit something it is allowed.

 

[rulefan]

Colin? Rulefan?

I'm sure Atticus will keep you on the straight and narrow.

Edit:

He did, comprehensively

Edit:

Well, nearly

 

[atticusfinch]

Doesn't the cross reference to Rule 20-5 cover it?

Correct. That reemphasizes that all of the options available for the initial tee shot are available for subsequent stroke and distance shots. Good catch.

 

[Colin L]

As a subsidiary then. You play your tee shot, which hits a something and ricochets back onto the teeing ground. Presumably that must be played as it lies?

Looks as if everything has been tidied up except this. Yes, the ball must be played as it lies. A couple of things you might want to note. The tee markers are now movable obstructions and although the teeing ground is not through the green you get, in equity, relief from an embedded ball - provided the teeing ground is closely mown and I've certainly seen some that weren't!

 

[palindromicbob]

Lol amazing how we can make the rules even more complicated.

 

[Foxholer]

Rule 11-1 says : When a player is putting a ball into play from the teeing ground, it must be played from within the teeing ground and from the surface of the ground or from a conforming tee (see Appendix IV) in or on the surface of the ground. When you take relief under stroke and distance for a lost tee shot you are "putting a ball into play from the teeing ground." The concerns in rule 27 about dropping as near as possible to the last shot do not apply because you are putting a ball in play from the teeing ground. Thus rule 11, and only 11, governs what you can do.

This rule applies whether it is the first stroke on a hole or a stroke and distance penalty shot. It makes no exceptions for other rules or subsequent shots. Any ball put into play from the teeing ground is treated the same. You do not have to tee it at the same height or from the same place within the teeing ground. Any options you have with the first ball you have with subsequent balls. You know this is so, because there is nothing to the contrary in the rule. The rules are fundamentally rules of exclusion. If they do not prohibit something it is allowed.

Excellent! Thanks for that. I agree about the exclusion/prohibition/allowed part. There is just a tiny bit of a 'missing connection'/contradiction niggle in my mind that a few words (in 27-1) would eliminate, but hey-ho.

 

[Slab]

Looks as if everything has been tidied up except this. Yes, the ball must be played as it lies. A couple of things you might want to note. The tee markers are now movable obstructions and although the teeing ground is not through the green you get, in equity, relief from an embedded ball - provided the teeing ground is closely mown and I've certainly seen some that weren't!

Cool nugget of info
Whats the guidance on replacing a moveable obstruction after a stroke and is there consideration to order of play both for replacing moveable obstruction and in the scenario of a ball rebounding to teeing ground and poss furthest from hole etc

 

[backwoodsman]

Ok, so here's the pedant in me coming out...

Having been guided by the thread to look at rule 11, and having just re-read it several times, there is no reference in it (nor in 20-5) as to when the ball is in play. Both only make reference to to what you may do whilstputting a ball into play. But the original answer of "when you make a stroke at it" is correct - but decision 11-3/3 makes it clear this stems from the definition of ball in play and not from rule 11.

My original confusion arose from the fact that one had already put a ball in play with the first shot, so I couldn't work out why 20-4 did not apply. But it's because the ball being used under s&d has not yet been in play on that hole and the shot is being played from the teeing ground.

Pedantry over and thanks all.